Episode 855

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The ninth of Ian Wilson's Twelve Labours of Comic Reel-lief sees the man in question take in three films on the same subject, that being Frank Castle, The Punisher. Aided by no lesser source than Michael David Sims as to what to look out for, Ian takes in The Punisher from 1989, The Punisher from 2004, and 2008's Punisher: War Zone. Which is the most compelling of these three very different iterations of the same character? Listen in to find out! [ 1:10:40 || 34.1 MB ]

[Koete]

Yeah, I don't buy your argument. Punisher '89 is a decent '80s action movie, but I don't see anything in it that would make it an 8/10. I think you really shortchanged Lexi Alexander's direction; it's not confused, it's very clear in it that the exaggerated elements are on purpose, and, considering you're a fan of the rocket scene, successful. On that note, I also don't get how the ideas are half-formed, especially when the previous two didn't put any effort into trying to do something greater with the material like War Zone's satire.  I think Dolph Lundgren's corpse-like appearance works for the Punisher, but there's no contest between him and Stevenson; the scene at the gravestone has more emotion than anything in '89. I also think Jigsaw is a much better villain than you do, but that's more subjective than the other elements. And on a pure visual level, I don't see how '89 stands out, on its own or next to War Zone.

[Donomark]

I fall on both you guys. I agree with the Lexi Alexander direction being much more purposeful than at first glance. Some of the visuals are really cool. There is definitely a B-movie vibe in this film that I hadn't initially realized it was going for. Conversely Jigsaw as a villain didn't do much for me personally, but that might be my bias as I have an aversion to comic book movie villains who are presented in a zany or wacky fashion. Funny villains usually spell death for the movie to me, and I don't mean James Spader as Ultron sardonic. Jigsaw in this kept reminding me of Tommy Lee Jones' Two-Face, with his knee-slapping cackling. He may warrant a third viewing tho.

Nothing can save Looney Bin Jim for me however. Fuck that guy.

[slothian]

Yeah, I don't buy your argument. Punisher '89 is a decent '80s action movie, but I don't see anything in it that would make it an 8/10. I think you really shortchanged Lexi Alexander's direction; it's not confused, it's very clear in it that the exaggerated elements are on purpose, and, considering you're a fan of the rocket scene, successful. On that note, I also don't get how the ideas are half-formed, especially when the previous two didn't put any effort into trying to do something greater with the material like War Zone's satire.  I think Dolph Lundgren's corpse-like appearance works for the Punisher, but there's no contest between him and Stevenson; the scene at the gravestone has more emotion than anything in '89. I also think Jigsaw is a much better villain than you do, but that's more subjective than the other elements. And on a pure visual level, I don't see how '89 stands out, on its own or next to War Zone.

1) No worries, my argument isn't for sale!

2) Punisher 89 had a clear idea of what it was doing, set up stakes for Punisher to overcome in the face of overwhelming violence and featured some very cool action sequences for that day and age. And Punisher was made vulnerable insofar that he was captured at least once.

3) I was possibly overly harsh on the direction in that a) she didn't have final cut of the film, and b) the script is more to blame for the shift from mirthless uber violence to uber violence with dark humour. But I remain of the view that the direction is inconsistent.

4) Oh right, satire.

5) Lundgren's Punisher was a driven vigilante who was emotionally unstable and vulnerable. Stevenson's Punisher was never vulnerable and therefore never in danger. I stand by what I said in my review that the extent of Castle's dilemma in War Zone was when he had a hostage stand-off. Otherwise, Jigsaw was his bitch throughout.

6) I'm not ranking Punisher 89 on a pure visual level (although there ARE multiple ninjas sliding down a funslide on their knees firing guns!) but as an overall package. War Zone undoubtedly has some nicer visuals, but Jeroen Krabbe is a better, more nuanced villain than Jigsaw, and Lundgren's Punisher is more interesting/vulnerable than Stevenson's iteration. Again, this is all my opinion which you're free to disagree with, but that is my argument. WHICH YOU CANNOT BUY!!!

[Koete]

"Punisher 89 had a clear idea of what it was doing, set up stakes for Punisher to overcome in the face of overwhelming violence and featured some very cool action sequences for that day and age."

War Zone had him overcoming doubt in his black and white worldview and dealing with Jigsaw, with some very cool action sequences. 

"And Punisher was made vulnerable insofar that he was captured at least once."

He's emotionally vulnerable throughout War Zone. He's also covered in body armor, with a full armory and a basement full of files for people he's killed. Does him being physically vulnerable really matter?

"Jeroen Krabbe is a better, more nuanced villain than Jigsaw." 

Krabbe does a good job with the role, but he's a crime boss with crime boss problems. I agree that Kim Miyori's Lady Tanaka is interesting, as women rarely get to be villains, and the one-on-one fight between her daughter and The Punisher is one of the best parts of the movie. And hey, Jigsaw does his share of generic crime boss stuff too, but the performance and beats like the recruitment really make him standout. Like I said, to each their own, but you're a lot more forgiving of the comic book elements of '89 (like the ninjas) than the ones in War Zone.   

And if I can't buy your argument, then I'm going to buy all the land around your argument! 

[slothian]

 And if I can't buy your argument, then I'm going to buy all the land around your argument! 

That's Chris "Luthor" Johnson, folks!

And ultimately, it's fine that we disagree. After all, Dark City is awesome.....

[Koete]

 

[slothian]

[S-T]

I loved the reference to the other Jigsaw, especially the clip from the Damien/James/Michael review of Saw VI.

War Zone was my favorite of the three, so I was surprised it did so poorly.

In my opinion, Punisher works best as a foil to heroic characters - someone who is on the "same side" but who is so brutal he becomes a villain who must be stopped. The problem with the Punisher in a movie is that he can be very generic with very little to separate him from other movies in the action genre.

Frank Castle is ticked off that his family was murdered and goes on a whirlwind of murderous revenge. But the same can be said for Death Wish, Hard to Kill and a number of other revenge-based action movies... or even Jason in Friday the 13th. There's not much to separate him from those movies and there's really nothing to distinguish a Punisher movie as a comic book movie.