Episode 869

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Dan and Mike take a look back at The Death of Jean DeWolff, in which Spider-Man must hunt down a ruthless cop killer. [ 42:35 || 20.8 MB ]

 

[Donomark]

Cool convo guys. I liked Dan explaining how this ties into Eddie Brock's motivation to hate Spider-Man, which when you think about it is tenuous logic at best.

One thing I disagree with however is the sentiment that Spider-Man "doesn't work" in darker stories. I get that that's not how he's traditionally done, but I think saying it straight up doesn't fit him limits the scope of the character's story potential. The reason this is so well liked is because it took him to such a dark place. Yeah him going around town saying "I'MA KILL YOU" is not much in character, but the sentiment that the tone is inappropriate doesn't personally register to me, especially considering that most of his classic stories were all pretty serious. Master Planner, Death of Gwen, Kraven's Last Hunt and this. I get that Spider-Man's a superhero character, but his central appeal is supposed to be his reliability, and that should keep his problems from going too bonkers-out there. That's why ASM #2 was eventually ret-conned with the whole aliens from another world story. I agree that the tone should never go as dark as Daredevil comics have, but I think this is as fine a metric for pushing it as it gets.

[Dan]

One thing I disagree with however is the sentiment that Spider-Man "doesn't work" in darker stories. I get that that's not how he's traditionally done, but I think saying it straight up doesn't fit him limits the scope of the character's story potential.

That's absolutely fair. I don't think I articulated my thinking all that well; it was the mid '80s, early 90's, and as comics were getting darker and more "realistic" (EXTREEEEME!!!!) there was a half-hearted attempt to push Spidey in that direction (I'm looking at you, Todd McFarlane's The Adjectiveless Spider-Man). And that story doesn't work on a consistent basis. For every "Kraven's Last Hunt", which was awesome, you had ten "Torment"s, which was decidedly not. I think, and your mileage may vary, that the absolute last thing Peter should be doing is going to the dive bar, beating up lowlifes until he gets the information he wants. Batman? Of course. Daredevil? Absolutely. Punisher. Yes. Spider-Man? No. I know I, personally, don't read Spider-Man looking for him to take on urban gritty street crime. I read Spider-Man to watch him punch the Shocker in the face while he runs around carrying big canvas bags with dollar signs on them.

While you can, and should, be able to tell any kind of story you want with any kind of character, Spider-Man is, to my mind, less at home in stories like "The Death of Jean DeWolff", although that doesn't stop that story from being quite good. While a lot of people point to Peter as being funny and quippy, which he is, many people forget that the jokes by and large mask the fact that Peter is, at his core, a deeply unhappy person who gets shit on quite a lot, and that does mean the stories are going to get serious from time to time, and that's fine. But I never shook the feeling that the creators were trying to jam a square peg in a round hole with this story. "Serious", and even "dark", =/= "grim 'n' gritty", and while there have been tons of darker Spider-Man stories over the years, this is an early example of grim 'n' gritty - a very specific type of story that was gaining traction at the time, and IMO it's a type of story that Spidey doesn't feel natural in.

[Donomark]

One thing I disagree with however is the sentiment that Spider-Man "doesn't work" in darker stories. I get that that's not how he's traditionally done, but I think saying it straight up doesn't fit him limits the scope of the character's story potential.

That's absolutely fair. I don't think I articulated my thinking all that well; it was the mid '80s, early 90's, and as comics were getting darker and more "realistic" (EXTREEEEME!!!!) there was a half-hearted attempt to push Spidey in that direction (I'm looking at you, Todd McFarlane's The Adjectiveless Spider-Man).

AH. Say no more! McFarlene's Adjectiveless is a terrific example of how it just doesn't work. I will absolutely give you all that and a bag of chips.

I know, like you mentioned, Owsley on edits wanted 'Spec to be the "Hill Street Blues" of the Spidey books, while ASM was the superhero stuff and Web was him traveling to different places. So IDK if it was simply a desire to darken up Spider-Man as it was to diversify his line of comics.

But I get what you're saying tho. I personally have an aversion to pidegon-hole-ing Spider-Man in the bright and happy superhero genre because my favorite stories are of him just dealing with real world stuff and the only thing fantastic about his life is when he's in the costume. Like, Slott's current billionaire genius Peter Parker does not appeal to me at all. But sure, him going as "dark" as he did with McFarlene was the line, fer sure.

[S-T]

Before I start: I am not criticizing this story arc at all; I own it in a Spider-Man masterpiece collection from Wizard and I really like the Sin-Eater arc. It makes you feel how much DeWollf's murder affected Peter.

That said, this story has elements that make me cringe especially in relation to what we're seeing now with mass incarceration and criminal justice reform generally. The subplot with Aunt May's friend plays into the fearmongering about violent crime that has led to the problems we see today. It was a product of its time in that regard.

Even with those problems, this story is not pure propaganda like some other fiction of the same era. I was really glad to see Daredevil stand up for due process, which provides a balance rarely seen in pop culture at the time. The judge telling Daredevil to work as a public defender because it would give him some guts was excellent and considering it has been 30 years it is even better. So big props to the story for that.

The story has deep political overtones and it handles it very well - especially for a comic book written ostensibly for kids.

[Davedevil]

I have the same Wizard hardcover! I call it the Best 80s Spider-Man Stories because it doesn't have comics from any other decade. Good selection of stuff though, that's where I first read The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man.

I have no problem with Spidey being in dark stories as long as the character himself isn't dark. Serious, yes, but not grim. I remember the Spider-Man Batman crossover where he loses his shit at the Joker, when perhaps the better way to have gone about it was to beat him at his own game, like Terry McGinnis in Return of the Joker.