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JackFetch

Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

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Wonder Woman was great; the best part of the film. Eagerly awaiting her solo movie.

I want to see more of Batfleck. The rest? Not so much.

I will give this a rating of barely adequate. Must do better. Much better.

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I really enjoyed it. I was engaged the whole time, despite being an overly long movie. (Okay, too long)

All the acting was solid. Cavill, Affleck and Gadot do great with what they have. All the secondary characters were good too, Amy Adams is pretty much my favorite Lois Lane. Jeremy Irons just might be my favorite Alfred. 

Eisenberg was weird, and maybe more appearances could help create a better Lex. He seems to be on his way there.

Two big issues with the portrayal of Batman and Superman. The former, he straight up kills people. The latter, he doesn't even try to explain the situation to Batman as they're fighting until the very last second. I know the movie's titled Batman v Superman but character seemed to get thrown out of the window to get that to happen.

Action was phenomenal. I know we've seen it from the trailers but that whole thing to rescue Martha Kent was pure Batman to me. (Again, minus the killing)

On the whole it was a pretty standard setup to them all getting together. I don't really think that there were too many divergences in setting up the Justice League. Maybe the files, but I felt that it had something to do with Lex's whole ploy. Plus I was too busy enjoying the appearances.

Last thing, what the hell with Mercy. Disappointing.

 

Hidden Content

I think Lex found out through the Kryptonian ship having all that knowledge? He calls him Kal-El. 

Edited by Davedevil

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I worked out my thoughts chatting with Hannah and Don, which are that it's not a good movie.

Launching a universe out of this one movie was a bad idea from day one. I thought after the first full trailer they had a grip on it, but the later trailers made me pretty worried they didn't. And they didn't. The problem with the cinematic universe approach we now have is storytelling across films equaling weight. There was no way the second movie in this project could a. deal with the ramifications of Man of Steel, b. introduce Batman as an antagonist, and c. set-up future films in a satisfying manner. Add the Death of Superman as well, and there was no avoiding the mess this movie is. 

There's so much shorthand with introducing Bruce and Lex. I love the idea of this Batman, this 20 years deep Batman. But a lot of the burden on understanding his motivations and life is on the audience. You can pull out that he's branding people after 20 years of villains and death, that his anger is from thinking his life of crimefighting is nothing next to Superman, but this is the first time we're seeing this Batman; knowledge of the character is substituted for actually knowing him. And then there's the wanton destruction, which reaches a point where the "20 years older" conceit doesn't justify what this Batman's doing. Same for Lex; he's more Joker than Luthor, but why? Family psychosis? Driven mad by a Fourth World vision (based on his last lines)? His position of "messiah denier" relates to his history of hating Superman, but again, that's a connection based on knowledge. This movie requires not just prior knowledge to fill in gaps, but comic literate knowledge. 

And then there's what a bizarre collage of scenes this is. The post-apocalyptic Elseworlds vision via the Fourth World. The suicide bombing at the government hearing. Wonder Woman watching videos of The Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg. The Death of Superman. And many more, with typical Superman and Batman scenes scattered throughout like it's just another one of those movies. 

I've seen people angry at this, but I can't be, it's too much of a grotesque to be angry. The fact that we got a superhero film like this, with these characters, is astonishing.

 

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It just occured to me: This is the first live-action Batman movie where the death of the Wayne's is not depicted as the the main villain of the film being behind it. Batman '89, it's Jack Napier who becomes The Joket. Batman Begins, it's The League of Shadows.

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I was afraid that was Jimmy.

Due to the reception the movie has received, I wonder if it will damage the box office draw of Suicide Squad. While I know Batman v Superman is raking in money this opening weekend, bad word of mouth might hinder ticket sales of other movies set within the same universe.

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Between the difference in scope and the association with Batman (he does seem to be generally liked), I don't know if it will. 

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It's a cynical piece of crap.

Like Chris, I'm not as outraged as I'd think I'd be a few years ago. It wasn't as funny as I was hoping it'd be (funniest moments were predictably in the Bats/Supes fight), it's flat out bad. The script watches like a resurrected JL script that was rejected years ago(Dafuq was Ben Affleck narrating about/for in the beginning?). Cavill tries his damndest but Snyder and DC clearly see the archetypal Superman character as an embarrassment that they have to continually break down in order to sit at the cool kids table. It's the only reason why ANYTHING happens in this movie. Affleck's fine but thoroughly uninspiring in the role, and if anyone says this is the best Batman on-screen, they're about as high as the writers were whenever they put pen to paper during those dream sequences. Wonder Woman's solid, but superfluous. I liked Luthor for what he was but his behavior and motivations were so insistently bizarre and unexplained. The pacing was amateurish. There was really no humanity whatsoever. Alfred was wasted. Mercy was wasted. "Jimmy" was wasted. That Robin costume case was wasted. Wayne Manor is destroyed for no explained reason.

This is to 2008's The Dark Knight what 1990s Image comics were to Watchmen and the Dark Knight Returns. Just because something is dark and violent doesn't make it good. Snyder's track record (300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch) has sepia-toned violent imagery in place of story throughout, except for Watchmen in which he's just transcribing the comic. Speaking of which, despite swearing that this movie isn't doing DKR there are entire lines of dialogue and pages of scenes ripped out of the comic and duct-taped onto the screen. It's the most blatant pandering I've ever seen.

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Hearing everything for the past few days, I went in with low expectations.  I didn't have this hatred that I've seen from some.  I was mostly bored.  I think Chris was correct when he said "This movie requires not just prior knowledge to fill in gaps, but comic literate knowledge."

What was the plan of Luthor?  Kill Superman?  It didn't come off as such.  I have no idea what his motivations were other than he was Lex Luthor so he must hate Superman.

I did not like the Doomsday fight at all.  Too me is was all a big CGI-mess that I couldn't really tell what was happening.

Alfred.  He seemed more like an peer to Bruce than father figure.

All the cameo footage would have worked better as an after credit thing.  In the movie is was out of place.

The Death of Superman.  It held zero weight for me.  Batman and Wonder Woman are all sad because they should be?  Wonder Woman show up five minutes ago and Batman just tried to kill him.   The "I failed him in life, but I will not in death" line at the end?  What?  Again, Batman went from 'I want ot murder-kill Superman because reasons' to 'Oh, our moms had the same name. BFFs!' in about fifteen minutes.

 

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A Spoileriffic List of Questions I'm Left With:

 

-Why did Thomas Wayne take a swing at Joe Chill? I get it from a 'protecting his family' standpoint, but from a narrative standpoint, it really hurts the whole idea of cold blooded murder. Joe Chill now may have panicked in self defense, rather than just been a cold blooded criminal. Lord knows, that if the 6'2', huge Jeffery Dean Morgan took a swing at me, I'd panic.

-The gun cocking broke Martha's necklace? Really?

-I'm glad the total destruction of Metropolis is getting it's due and all, but how is Bruce blaming this on Superman? Before Zod showed up, all Superman had done was save lives, something Lois Lane figured out in MoS, and something that the world's greatest detective should have easily seen.

-Is that supposed to be Jimmy Olsen? If so, why in the fuck did we kill him after a shitty cameo? And why did he hide a tracker in his camera, like it's 1951?

-Does Lex use this same tattooed, easily identified Russian guy for every job?

-These villages were shot and blown up. Why is Superman to blame, again? He doesn't use guns.

-Who the fuck thought that "Niaromi, Africa" was a subtle substitute?

-What the fuck is wrong with Lex Luthor?

-Seriously?

-Off all the options he had, why did Jesse Eisenberg go with 'shittier Heath Ledger Joker?' Why was Mark Zuckerberg not good enough?

-Why has no one bothered to clean up the huge crashed space ship in the Indian Ocean? Seems like Greenpeace might take issue.\

-Why did Zod have Kryptonite?

-I get it's been eighteen months, but why can't we see any of Clark courting Lois?

-How is The Planet still open, if it can't sell papers about Batman fucking branding people?

-If he has X-Ray vision, why does Clark follow Bruce downstairs at Lex's party?

-I get the "freaks dressed like a clown" line was cute in the trailers, but doesn't Bruce realize that he's basically comparing a national hero to John Wayne Gacy?

-Why is Diana Catwoman?

-Why is Alfred building everything?

-How did the world's greatest detective think "The White Portugese" was a person, not a ship, anchored five miles from him?

-How many people does Batman kill in this movie? I'm thinking a dozen.

-Why did Superman stop the Batmobile, and not the fifteen thugs firing automatic weapons on the street?

-After Superman destroys the Batmobile and threatens Bruce, how is Alfred not on board?

-WHY DID LEX ARM HIS THUGS IN AFRICA WITH BULLETS HE PERSONALLY MADE?

-How did Lex Luthor sneak a Mason jar of piss into the Senate?

-Why did Lex blow up Mercy?

-How did Clark not hear, see, or smell the bomb? I get he gives the "maybe I didn't want to" line, but that's bullshit.

-Why does Wonder Woman give a fuck about a photo from 1918, if she left the world of men a hundred years ago?

-He's building a suit of power armor and a twenty pound increase in his bench press means nothing againist a guy who can redirect a hurricane with a fart, so why is Bruce killing himself with superhard work outs?

-Seriously, what the fuck is Lex Luthor's plan? Kill Superman, ???, Profit?

-What the fuck was Pa Kent's speech about? In MoS, he was willing to die saving a fucking dog, just so Clark wouldn't expose himself, now he's all "Your job comes with costs?"

-No one notices Clark and Superman going missing at the same time?

-In TDKR, Bruce stops drinking when he goes back to being Batman, why is Bruce still a drunk?

-How many guns is Batman going to use in this movie?

-Were those Parademons?

-Was that the Flash? Why does he have a fucking beard?

-Okay, seriously, what is Lex's plan? Is he gonna release Doomsday if Batman wins, anyway?

-Why does the Kryptonian ship just accept Lex?

-Why does Lex put his blood into Doomsday?

-How does Lex know Clark is Superman?

-How doesn't Bruce?

-How many times are we going to use Lois as a damsel in distress?

-How does Clark know Bruce is Batman?

-What is Batman's plan here? Shouldn't he have held onto the spear?

-Why does Superman keep walking into traps he could easily see with his Supersenses?

-Why does he keep walking forward instead of explaining the situation to Batman? "Lex Luthor has my mom, I need your help?"

-Wait, why does he need Batman's help? Exactly what does Bruce do that he can't?

-I actually don't hate the Martha thing. Why hadn't I noticed that before?

-Why were all those teasers for other movies on Lex's flash drive? Why wasn't Diana more excited?

-Is that a Mother Box in the Cyborg Thing?

-Why was the US Government so quick to nuke Superman, just after he'd regained their trust?

-WHY DOESN'T BRUCE GO GET THE SPEAR AND GO BACK TO THE UNINHABITED ISLAND, RATHER THAN LEAD DOOMSDAY INTO GOTHAM?

-HOW DOES LOIS KNOW THEY NEED THE SPEAR AGAIN? No one has said anything to her, how does she know Doomsday is Kryptonian?

-Why doesn't Superman give the weapon that can kill Doomsday to the person that's actually kicking his ass, AKA Wonder Woman? 

-Which numbnuts decided that the best way to build a Justice League movie and shared universe is to kill fucking Superman?

-Why doesn't Superman heal? He healed from a nuclear fucking explosion in seconds, like ten minutes ago.

-Why does DC hate Superman so much?

-Why can't we mail Zack Snyder back to the Frozen Tundra of Green Bay, WI?

Edited by Preston

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I cannot believe they cut this scene out of the movie.

Hidden Content

 

I have no idea what just happened.

A Spoileriffic List of Questions I'm Left With:

 

Hidden Content

-I've seen people complain about this, but Thomas tries to intercept Joe Chill in the very first version of the origin. Nolan did it better though, made more sense.

-One of the first and many scenes cribbed from Dark Knight Returns

-Batman's anger at Superman is more contrived than I ever thought possible. It's all built on "SOMEDAY he might go bad! I must kill him NAO!"

-Jimmy Olsen isn't realisitic enough for these movies, but he's a nod for the fans. They'll enjoy knowing he was murdered without his name even being said.

My problem with that scene is that Superman should've gotten there well before Jimmy was shot. But only Lois gets to live in these scenes.

-He watched the Winter Soldier and hired him from Hydra!

-because reasons

-My favorite subtitle was "Somewhere in..." etc

-These movies apparently have it in their contract that Lex Luthor is a funnyman.

-Why did Zod have Kryptonite? *shrugs*

-I get it's been eighteen months, but why can't we see any of Clark courting Lois? *shrugs*

-How is The Planet still open, if it can't sell papers about Batman fucking branding people? Because Perry is now an idiot.

-*shrugs*

-lol

-buwhuh?

-BECAUSE ALFRED WAS IN THE ARMY YOU GUYS AND HE CAN TOTALLY KICK ASS!

-LOL

-It's okay because he's old and sad so we can allow him to be nothing like his character!

-I noticed that, he did nothing to apprehend the crooks Batman was chasing.

-Because Bruce is a crazy man

-Otherwise he wouldn't be found out!

-I don't know

-Because he watched Superman: Doomsday and wanted to follow it to the letter

-It is bullshit

-Chris Pine wanted it back

-Eye of the Tiger

-It's the vaguest motivation and plan I've ever seen in a film

-I don't know

-that'll be fixed when Matrix Supergirl publicly pulls him out of rubble in JLA

-Because drinking is cool kids. Also DKR

-Because guns are cools kids.

-YEP

-i don't know

-I don't know

-Because Superman Returns said it was okay

-Because comics

-Hopefully because it's obvious

-He's blinded by RAAAGE

-Often

-I DON'T KNOW

-Sacrifice him to his parents

-Because reasons

-FIGHT NIGHT

-reasons again

-It's a nice use of a coincedence

-because they, like this movie, were in black/white

-RIGHT?! WTF

-According to the Supergirl show, the US Government are fearful fucks who have it coming

-*shrugs*

-IDK

-He really should've done that

-Zack Snyder

-Wasn't his heart pierced?

-Because they're afraid people won't think they're cool if they like him

 

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I cannot believe they cut this scene out of the movie.

Hidden Content

 

It's just another scene that doesn't tell you what the hell is going on.

 

Why does Zod have kryptonite?

They did answer this.

Zod was terraforming Earth into a new Krypton, and my guess is it wasn't harmful to them because they hadn't been changed by our yellow sun/atmosphere yet.

Edited by JackFetch

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I think DC's biggest problem is that they forgot these movies are supposed to be fun.

Not neccessarily. I think it's perfectly valid to make a dark superhero/comics movie - I think Batman in particular lends himself to that - and it follows that "fun" doesn't particularly aid a consistent dark tone.

I watched the film a few hours ago, and I'll work out my feelings in full in Comic Reel-lief some time within the next month. But as an initial precursor, I'm not nearly as down on it as a lot of you are. Maybe its because I'm currently rewatching the worst CBMs I've ever reviewed and have that as a general sense of perspective, or maybe because it's so unlike recent CBMs that have been released recently that it was a welcome change of pace. It's definitely a flawed movie but I don't think it's the disaster it's being made out to be.

Zach Snyder's direction was incredibly distracting, though. Could definitely do with him being moved on to other projects.

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Don't get me wrong, I'd rather re-watch it than Ghost Rider or X-Men Origins: Wolverine. But it's got too many fundamental storytelling problems to be more than a fascinating mess.

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It felt like there were a lot of edits for the sake of runtime. I'd wager when the R-rated Blu-ray is released, it will push three hours and some of the plotholes will be fixed with the additional footage.

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I think DC's biggest problem is that they forgot these movies are supposed to be fun.

Not neccessarily. I think it's perfectly valid to make a dark superhero/comics movie - I think Batman in particular lends himself to that - and it follows that "fun" doesn't particularly aid a consistent dark tone.

I don't think Mask of the Phantasm is fun at all, and that has the reputation among comic fans of being the best Batman movie ever. 

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I think DC's biggest problem is that they forgot these movies are supposed to be fun.

Not neccessarily. I think it's perfectly valid to make a dark superhero/comics movie - I think Batman in particular lends himself to that - and it follows that "fun" doesn't particularly aid a consistent dark tone.

I don't think Mask of the Phantasm is fun at all, and that has the reputation among comic fans of being the best Batman movie ever. 

It's fun for a Batman fan!

Like "realism", the word "fun" has been pushed into a category that apparently means laughing and smiling. Fun can be dark, it can be intense, it can be gripping. It's not one thing, it's the feeling you get when you leave a movie. It's a malleable adjective. Batman Begins is fun as hell.

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Don't get me wrong, I'd rather re-watch it than Ghost Rider or X-Men Origins: Wolverine. But it's got too many fundamental storytelling problems to be more than a fascinating mess.

No, I'd rather watch either than this again. Those are funny. I'd way sooner marathon both Schumacher films for a day than see BvS again. There's just nothing to hang onto in that thing for me.

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Don't get me wrong, I'd rather re-watch it than Ghost Rider or X-Men Origins: Wolverine. But it's got too many fundamental storytelling problems to be more than a fascinating mess.

No, I'd rather watch either than this again. Those are funny. I'd way sooner marathon both Schumacher films for a day than see BvS again. There's just nothing to hang onto in that thing for me.

Dude........X-Men Origins: Wolverine?!?! The film in which nothing in the plot makes sense? The film which stunt-casted will.i.am? The film which actively did it's damnedest to retcon X2, which remains the best X-Men movie? The film in which people became villains for no reason? The film with Patrick Stewart's unmoving, floating face? The film that cockteased Deadpool and then sewed his mouth shut? The film that was ultimately peripherary and so bad that it's been pretty much written out of continuity?

Similarly, Ghost Rider...........frikkin' Ghost Rider!!!! Featuring the acting powerhouses of Nicolas Cage, Eva Mendes and Wes Bentley. Featuring the most non-descript villains this side of Elektra. Featuring a pre-fame Rebel Wilson. Seriously?

I get that you're pissed off at this movie, but if you value CBMs attempting humour over Batman vs Superman, then go ahead and cover Son of the Mask on the Comic Book Film Revue!

b5785782aa5515e15eedb8b446f4d4efb3865bb9

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Don't get me wrong, I'd rather re-watch it than Ghost Rider or X-Men Origins: Wolverine. But it's got too many fundamental storytelling problems to be more than a fascinating mess.

No, I'd rather watch either than this again. Those are funny. I'd way sooner marathon both Schumacher films for a day than see BvS again. There's just nothing to hang onto in that thing for me.

Dude........X-Men Origins: Wolverine?!?! The film in which nothing in the plot makes sense? The film which stunt-casted will.i.am? The film which actively did it's damnedest to retcon X2, which remains the best X-Men movie? The film in which people became villains for no reason? The film with Patrick Stewart's unmoving, floating face? The film that cockteased Deadpool and then sewed his mouth shut? The film that was ultimately peripherary and so bad that it's been pretty much written out of continuity?

Similarly, Ghost Rider...........frikkin' Ghost Rider!!!! Featuring the acting powerhouses of Nicolas Cage, Eva Mendes and Wes Bentley. Featuring the most non-descript villains this side of Elektra. Featuring a pre-fame Rebel Wilson. Seriously?

I get that you're pissed off at this movie, but if you value CBMs attempting humour over Batman vs Superman, then go ahead and cover Son of the Mask on the Comic Book Film Revue!

b5785782aa5515e15eedb8b446f4d4efb3865bb9

https://youtu.be/Y9KyBdPeKHg?t=24s

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I'm gonna have to agree with Ian on this one. I mean, this is a matter of personal opinion in the end but I fail to see how this is a worse movie than any of those. Hell, fucking Catwoman for fucks sake. At least no one brought that dumpster fire into this yet and that is definitely a worse movie because at least the actors are trying in Batman v Superman. Gal Godot alone keeps this from being as bad as Catwoman.

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The actors are totally blameless, especially Henry Cavill. I'm convinced there is no better choice on the planet right now than him for a Post-Crisis-y Superman.

I'm not agreeing with anyone who says Affleck's the bestest Batman ever, but he did fine. He didn't add anything to the role to me, it's all in how it was written. Either he did Batman-y stuff or he was a fucking caricatured psychopath, which was 85% of the time.

But honestly...the storytelling, surface level characterization, abstract motivations of the characters, and absolute refusal to be anything other than somber and brooding. It's Catwoman-levels of bad.

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It felt like there were a lot of edits for the sake of runtime. I'd wager when the R-rated Blu-ray is released, it will push three hours and some of the plotholes will be fixed with the additional footage.

I saw it yesterday.

I was a little worried that this would be terrible after your Tweet but I actually liked it.

You make a good point in your post here. This really should have been split into 2 movies. Batman vs. Superman in the first movie, and the Trinity against Doomsday in the second movie.

The visions of a post-apocalyptic future had zero impact on the movie's plot and should have been cut. I saw shades of the Superman animated series "Brave New Metropolis" episode in those scenes but they added nothing to the movie. Especially since...

The movie does not set up Darkseid, Apokolips, the Fire Pits or the Parademons AT ALL.

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