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KnightWing

The Flash

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With Chris on this, a lot of solid ideas not executed very well. Barry making idiotic decisions is fun to laugh at, but it's getting to be too much. I did like the exploration of the consequences of changing time so much, after the relatively minor effects it's had in past seasons. Felton's a good addition to the cast, hope they don't go the obvious route of having him be a villain. But that might just be the case.

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Okay so, Pros:

-The cast was well balanced and everyone had something to do and contribute

-They're using Tom Felton well so far, and I'm really enjoying all the scenes at the CCPD

-It's a solid storyline for Wally, even if it draws out Kid Flash from appearing even longer. But since we saw him in the premiere, it's a good way to round back to him without being a gigantic cocktease

-Barry really came off like the classic comic book Flash. Very inspirational, very encouraging and not completely a doofus

-Wells verbal back-of-head-slap upon hearing Barry messed with the timeline again was fun

-A number of well acted scenes in the second act where a lot of people were yelling

-I liked Wally being fixated on getting his speed and not really listening to either Joe or Barry, instead of it being resolved after a speech

 

Cons:

-You can play a drinking game of whenever someone says "I'll go talk to him/her", or when they hug. It's starting to really dampen the emotional moments a lot

- While it was cool for me to (at first recognize) see Magenta, this really smacked of "CW" style villainy. Same stupid grungy look, same stupid jacket. The jackets are the go-to visual keys for "antagonist". That or a British accent. Magenta's costume in the comics is pretty arch, but they just straight up did not try with her look. So lazy

-Magenta's actress was fine, but I kinda found her constant scrunching up her face distracting. I know that's bad, but still...

-Tom Cavanaugh's exasperated acting was fun, but I prefer a much more pissed off Wells. I think that the events of season 2 and getting to know the STAR Labs gang softened him a bit...but I miss him being a straight up dick. But it's not illogical since Jesse is no longer kidnapped by Zoom

-I wish they would stop shoving the main characters in STAR Labs for no reason. It should be Barry, Wells, Cisco and Caitlin and sometimes Joe. Iris and Wally never have anything to contribute or any reason to be there besides moral support, and it's distractingly awkward when they are there. I guess they needed Wally to be there to witness Jesse's speed, but that could've been written more dynamically.

-Personally, Jesse never left an impression on me in the last season. Violet Beane is a serviceable actress, but maybe they could've cast someone more interesting to play a speedster rather than someone who's just moderately sympathetic based on who her father is. So I was not hyped for her return. She's not bad, but she just takes up space. Here's hoping she's more interesting as Jesse Quick.

-I hate killing off villains, and I grew to enjoy the Rival. It feels like a cynical waste whenever they do it. I'm always reminded of Doc Ock at the end of Spider-Man 2, just dead because it's convenient for them to be dead.

I liked the episode, but more in the first half than the second. The season's still not hit it's potential, but it's been enjoyable still.

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Not much to add, though I'd say it was a step-up from the previous two. There are still problems, like the aforementioned "you need to talk to" parade and the waaaaay outdated TV version of "multiple personality disorder." But between something actually happening in the Barry and Iris relationship, Wells-2 coming back (although his less dickish personality and "not" jokes were shaky), and the set-piece at the end feeling more superhero than most of the recent one-off villains, it had more energy to it. Jesse was more of a plot device last year, so fingers crossed that they make her more dynamic. They seem to be continuing the relationship between her and Wally that popped up last year, which could be interesting or just fall flat. I can't tell if Julian yelling at the metahuman villain in the middle of police HQ was dumb or a natural extension of his character.

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This week's episode was really goofy, and it had nothing to do with the plot or anything with the Top or Mirror Master, who were fine. I'm hoping for more flare from them next time they show up.

The shopping for more Wells subplot was fucking bizarre. I have a tolerance for a lot of the crazy bullshit on this show, but man..this. was pushing it. I know Tom Cavanaugh is a funny guy and can be a comedic actor, but seeing him be wacky and do wacky accents took me out of the viewing experience. I really hope this is worth something darker down the road, because that was pretty damn silly.

I only really liked the shipping with the three members of the West family. We got more Joe in this episode than we have in a while, which is always great. I'm enjoying the development on the Barry/Iris relationship. It feels earned that they're together now. The Wally and Jesse thing was kind of weak drama for the two scenes it had, but it wasn't awful. 

This season has been very hesitant to really go for some of the darkness and intensity of the last two seasons, and that kind of worries me. New seasons shouldn't begin with safe episodes, and while this one wasn't filler there wasn't a sense that a lot progressed even thought a lot kind of had. I'm really hoping for a game changer in the next couple of episodes, because so far while I think it's been okay it's really weak tea compared to the show's average.

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I only really liked the shipping with the three members of the West family. 

How can you say they're playing it safe when there's incest?

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Yeah, this was a pretty lightweight episode. The Top was fun in a Golden Glider-ish way, but Mirror Master was dull as a rock; the actor brought nothing to the role. They really should've gone with the Scottish Mirror Master, he would've been a blast. It was amusing seeing Joe weirded out by Barry and Iris dating, when he's spent the past couple years encouraging Barry to ask her out. Clearly the writers going "we get it, it's weird, roll with us, okay?" I was also amused by them putting Jessie and Wally together. I noticed the set-up for it at the end of Season 2, but didn't expect them to pull the trigger this soon. I really like how they've done it, because while the Barry/Iris romance has been drawn out and labored, this one has been happening in the background and then Jessie just goes for it. When Wally gets his powers, I think it could be fun to see a pair of speedsters running around and having a good time. There were two jokes that really worked in this one: Barry super speeding to replace his and Iris' wine glasses with beers, and Cisco's "he wants to help us AND he's not evil, that's not a Wells we've encountered before." But speaking of...the Wells subplot was flat-out embarrassing. I thought "hey, let's grab another Wells from the multiverse" was dumb from the outset, but having Tom Cavanagh cycle through three not funny comedy characters was awful. One of the low points of the show. I hope there's a point to this new Wells, because there's diminishing returns for poor Tom Cavanagh. It seems like they're really struggling for focus this season. 

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The show really needs to decide what Barry and Joe's relationship is. When talking to Barry about Wally, Joe refers to Barry as his son. When Iris enters the picture, they're all adults and there's nothing more than some awkwardness involved. They're trying to have it both ways and it doesn't work.

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I'm a bit behind. I just finished the Christmas episode from season two. Joe gave Barry his father's watch, knowing full well that Wally was out there. Joe repeatedly calls Barry his son. Anything else is a huge step back. 

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After the last few weeks I wasn't excited to watch this week's episode, but in a pattern that repeated itself often for season 2 that led to being really entertained by it. I thought this was a very solidly written one, and my favorite of the season.

It was paced like a modern two-issue story for a comic. Once again, they've continuously been capitalizing on the potential for the relationship between Barry and Julian. Every scene with them together, at CCPD or otherwise was terrific. Grant Gustin had some great Jim Halpert-esque reactions to Julian's put-downs. He's a very good character, well written and acted. It could've been a grating role to see in the show, but the writers made it special.

The "HR" plot was definitely better than I was fearing it'd be, although if I were them I woulda kicked his ass back to his Earth by the end. The twist with him was neat, but I would've preferred another evil Wells, even though that woulda been cliche'd as well. I LOL'd when Wally called him a con man and Barry and Iris both loudly agreed.

Actually much of the entertainment was brought on by everyone's performances. Despite the weakest of scripts, these actors all have solid chemistry. Carlos Valdes really shined as a perpetually irritated Cisco. I kind of object to him being completely over his anger at Barry in the beginning of the episode, but it was made up for by his actions in this ep.

The Killer Frost subplot is moving along nicely, and I'm pleasantly surprised we saw some definite shades of evil with Caitlin. Her mom was a real piece of work. The whole "you never had time for me" thing was an eye-roll, but when Caitlin tells her she knows exactly what she's going through because her husband died, and the mother simply says "That sucks", I was stunned. Like...that was shockingly cold. (npi)

The monster plot was alright, not great not awful. I don't have any real complaints about this one at all. The next episode looks DAMN cool. BY the title, I thought we'd be getting Shade, the Changing Man, but because it deals with Wally, Kid Flash and Wally looking to be driven evil I am super down for it.

(Speaking of, HR called him Walter in the beginning which made my nerd sense go "ACTUALLEEE Walter West was the alt. universe version of Wally who is Wallace West, but that may've been intentional fanservice)

Edited by Donomark

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This was a decent episode with good acting from the regulars. It was great seeing Keynon Lonsdale gets really freaked out and angry, showing off more of what he can do. There was some terrific tension in the final scene where you had no clue what the heck was going on. The season seems to be grabbing onto its focus now.

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This was 98% a fantastic episode. Best of the season. It carried over the tension from the end of the previous episode and continued it for the first thirty solid minutes of the 42 minute ep. Savitar's fight with Flash was definitely reminiscent of his fight with Zoom, but not an exact duplicate. Killer Frost was amazing though, supremely evil. Danielle Panabaker really unleashed herself and it was great to see. Definitely looking forward to seeing her again. I also am loving how Cisco has been more solemn and morose (and with good reason) this season, and he's basically Vibe now. Grant Gustin continues to nail the role of Barry to the point where he's been very traditionally "Flash-like". There's very little learning curve with him anymore.

Wally's speed effect was cool and I'm looking forward to seeing Kid Flash develop.

Things wrapped up a bit too neatly in the last ten minutes. I'm wondering/hoping that Caitlin really is gone and that Killer Frost is playing a long game, but we'll hafta wait and see. So/So on the Julian as Alchemy reveal

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This episode rocked, both in service for the crossover and as a good continuation from last week. I think out of the previous two crossovers, time has strengthened this settings to where this is the best. It was majorly character driven, and showed how Barry's bungling affected all of the heroes, not just the ones on his show. Solid following up with Wally (which for the first time for a crossover gave reason for Iris to be there), fun interactions with Supergirl and good continuation of Cisco being pissed off. This has been my favorite season with Cisco. The broodier, angrier side to him has worked out well. Thus far it's my favorite for the season.

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This has been my favorite season with Cisco. The broodier, angrier side to him has worked out well.

I haven't seen this episode yet, but I have liked what they've done with Cisco this year. Up to this point he's essentially been "Felicity, but a boy" and giving him this arc has allowed him to really get fleshed out. It helps that the writers understand that a funny person doesn't necessarily stop being funny because he's angry.

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My thoughts after catching up on the last few episodes: it's gotten better, but not substantially. I think what it comes to for me is the show is running into a wall because of being a network show. Too many cast members and too many episodes that need villains, while trying to top the first season's main villain and coming up increasingly short. The villains minor and major are just terrible this season. And while they've done some great emotional work the past couple seasons, the emotion is feeling artificial in season 3. We've talked about the repeated "I'll go have a talk with" stuff, but the resolution (for now) of Caitlin going evil was so fake, like everyone being cool with Barry after he told them about Flashpoint. And Tom Cavanagh, who was one of the best parts of the show, is just wasted now. They have been doing a lot better by Cisco and Caitlin this season, and it's cool that Wally's finally a speedster, but I'm wondering if the show has much new to offer.

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Just do Rogue War Goddammit! No one was asking for Savitar, just have the Rogues go ham on Flash. Cold, Trickster, Piper, Heatwave, Top, Mirror Master, Weather Wizard. Trickster and Weather Wizard alone kicked Barry's ass all over Central City last year and it was awesome.

The preview does things to me tho, seeing Golden and Silver Age Flashes together again, and the proper Jay Garrick. That's always gonna get me.

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I like that idea. Set up over the season that some of the various Metahumans are working together/seem organized. Then, reveal that not all of them are and slowly reveal rival groups with Cold and his Rogues on one side, someone else and that hasn't been revealed and their group on the other. Last two episodes of the season, they go into open war on each other.

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For the first time since the show started, I'm properly caught up. I have one thing to say. 

Fuck H.R.  

More than anything the show has mishandled, the Wells character is garbage here. Unless he turns out to be Savitar (of course he will), it's a waste. Bring back Harry. There is zero reason not to. 

And I'm pretty sure the Killer Frost resolution was intentionally weak. There's no way that arc is done. 

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Okay, one other thing: 

How has Barry's timeline fuckery not done the most important thing; undo Captain Cold's dumbass death?

Edited by Preston

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I haven't been watching Arrow. Did they stay with the child gender swap on that show?

Thus far, yes.

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Even though the crossover wrapped up with Legends of Tomorrow, I couldn't watch the season up to now and it ended up being majorly Flash heavy anyway so I'll post my thoughts here.

Overall this is the best crossover, right? Maybe on a strict sense it's not as tight as the initial Flash/Arrow crossover in both their shows (Oliver shooting Barry in the back, a mind controlled Barry pwning Green Arrow, Flash saving Arrow and Arsenal from Captain Cold...man that shit is still cool), but I think the novelty of getting everybody together mostly worked. Chris said that Kara got the short end of the stick out of everyone, and he's right. The one image you can think of her is her floating in the air not doing much. I think when she's given dialogue she bounces off everyone well, and I'm glad she was there. Her show did no favors by completely ignoring the crossover until the final minute, but I guess when thinking about it there's no real way her show could have had anything to do with the Dominators. Whateves, they should've just gotten her onto Earth-1 halfway through it. Especially since Flash got everyone together in the first ten minutes. I also thought Oliver telling Kara to stand down was supremely dickish, and not in a good way. He feels uneasy about people with powers, yeah hi Batffleck. Seriously, every time I see Arrow it looks like a cool show but fuck Green Batman Arrow. It's ridiculous how they insist on re-writing the character into someone more cliche'd and less interesting compared to his comic book original.

Speaking of which, I thought the Arrow episode was actually kind of cool. It did the obvious thing with the "For the Man who has Everything" plot, and showed Season One Supergirl how it's done. It's more "Perchance to Dream", but I FWIW I liked the emotion with Thea, the engagement to Dinah, and Diggle as Green Arrow. He pwned that tough guy voice. But the last few minutes were the best because they got back to the actual plot, and seeing everyone inside a gigantic spaceship then flying through space...That's DC Comics! It was wacky and silly, but that really played for me.

I've not been keeping track of Legends thus far, but all throughout this crossover Heatwave was on fire (no pun intended). He was the MVP of last season, and in this I'm glad to see he's not changed one bit. Calling Kara "Skirt", telling her to call him and being an overall douche throughout really was fun. I'm not familiar with Steel and Vixen, but honestly I like what I saw in that their actors are decent and they're not as annoying as the Hawks. Steel's costume is definitely goofy, but really colorful and I think looks great against the backdrop of Flash, Vixen, Green Arrow and Supergirl. I also liked Stein's subplot. I didn't like them continuously having Jax disappear, as it never makes any sense. Firestorm's one of their biggest heavy hitters, and quite honestly why is Caitlin the one giving Stein the pep talks? Jax and Stein should be thick as thieves, and the writers seems to be completely ignorant of that. Him saving the day by turning the thing into water was great though.

I think the best part about this is that Flashpoint played a major role throughout. I wish we got a scene in the new 52 with Barry explaining to everyone how he selfishly ruined their lives (and by extension their company). I've seen a lot of people online rag on Cisco's anger at Barry, but I think it's 100% justified. I really liked seeing that stay consistent throughout. What was less good was having it wash away in part four where Cisco makes a dissimilar time traveling mistake and suddenly sees things from Barry's perspective. Cisco going back in time and kidnapping a Dominator in order to help save the world is not the same thing as Barry actively, knowingly going back in time to save his mother, knowing goddamn well what's going to happen and that everyone's lives would be changed. He didn't anticipate what would change, but he knew the world would be different. Cisco didn't know the Dominators would blame them for time travel. So I can see this putting Cisco on the road to forgiveness, and maybe even getting over himself when the crunch was on, but the way they played his realization implied that he totally absolved Barry of his time-crime. That's too easy, and I can only hope he's not jokey Cisco right away in the next ep.

But overall, while thoroughly imperfect, I thought this was a solid crossover that had a lot of bang for its buck. I loved all of Flash, and Legends was really solid as well. Arrow was fine as an episode but only the last few minutes are worth seeing for the story. Favorite bits are any scene with Mick, the GA/Flash vs. Everyone fight, the take down of the  CIA goons by the heroes, Flash and Supergirl being pals, Barry awkwardly trying to lead the team, and just the scope of where they've taken this universe now. Also Wally's subplot in the Flash ep was cool too. It's not the best they could've done, but what they gave us I'm pretty happy with.

 

Edited by Donomark

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I was pretty negative about last year's crossover, and while I didn't dislike this one as much, my interest in it wasn't much higher than The Flash this season. The crossovers up to this point have had the vibe of crossovers between ongoing series. The way they hyped "Invasion," it was set up as a full-on event series. Instead, we got a mash-up of tie-ins and event series issues, which I ultimately didn't find to be satisfying. I'm sure the reason the Supergirl episode was restricted to just the last minute was so the rest of the cast didn't go without a paycheck, but it was misleading to advertise this as a four-part event. Add in Arrow's 100th episode falling during the crossover, which they fit the crossover around so they could tell a typical 100th episode story, and the crossover is really two episodes and change. And the story it tells isn't very good. There's no tension or drama to the alien invasion, nothing compelling about this threat that's supposed to require Supergirl and the Legends (holy shit, are you fucking kidding me, you're actually calling them "The Legends") being brought in. I mean, the President gets vaporized and there's no weight to it at all. I can't even give it much of a boost for getting everybody together because the crossover is so truncated; there was no time to build some great dynamics between people who hadn't met.

The Flash episode was probably the best episode of the crossover, though it still had problems. Like Don said, the best part of it was the continued ramifications of Flashpoint. Cisco coming across the message from the future was convenient, but I liked that the impact of Barry's choice on him and the rest of the universe was a throughline. I've liked the Barry/Oliver relationship since the first crossover, so it was great to get a bit of that. Heroes fighting mind-controlled is a classic trope, but despite some dodgy action choreography, the variety of attacks and Supergirl's involvement gave it a certain charge. A lot of where this one falls flat is in the dialogue. From Lyla revealing the military named the aliens Dominators for some reason to various "this is who this person is and their powers are" lines, a lot of clunky exposition. Ray telling Barry about Cold was particularly irksome to me. They've spent a lot of time developing a grudging respect between the two, and Barry finding out about Cold's death should've been much better written.

The Arrow episode did do a better take on "For the Man Who Has Everything" than Supergirl did last year, but like the Supergirl episode in the crossover, it was more of a tie-in than an event. Some moments of it worked, like Diggle being the Green Arrow in the dream reality (because he does a better faux Batman voice than Oliver) and Thea wanting to stay. The latter leads to a problem that CW TV has though, which is hammering out any nuance. Characters on these shows aren't allowed to have problems with each other for too long before they come back together again. Rather than have Thea get ripped out of the reality, she joins everyone else to fight out of it. A similar case is the non-dream reality section, where the episode becomes a Very Special Episode where Flash and Supergirl teach Wild Dog that not all metahumans are bad. Really. Also: disappointing that Mr. Terrific is another Felicity clone (on the same show Felicity's on) and so weird that Ragman is just hanging out. If I had been watching Arrow from the beginning, I would probably be more into the 100th episode aspects of it, but in this context, they emphasize how much it feels like a normal episode wedged into the crossover.

Since most of the crossover has to take place in the Flash and LoT episodes, they blow through the resolution in the LoT episode. We find out the Dominators are here to get rid of Flash because of his ability to alter timelines (presumably from information they got from the captives in the Arrow episode?), Cisco and Stein whip up alien related technology in no time (mass produced in Stein's case), and, as Don noted, Cisco and Barry bury the hatchet over situations that aren't the same. And Felicity and Cisco teaming up in a LoT episode is as irritating in execution as it is on paper. Commander Steel and Vixen weren't in it enough to have an opinion of them either way. What I do know is that Commander Steel's costume is embarrassing. There were positives though. While she was sidelined throughout, Kara had some great bits in this one. The final battle was pretty good, and Flash and Supergirl speeding around the country to stop the Dominators was a very comic book resolution. But just like in the Flash episode, the best part was Heat Wave. Ever since the back half of the first season of LoT, he's been consistently entertaining and filling the void left by Captain Cold's absence. Barry and Oliver at the bar was a nice way to end it. The scenes of Oliver helping Barry deal with the Flashpoint fallout and being thrust into a leadership position made for a nice parallel to Barry's strained friendship with Cisco. 

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