The Master

The Dark Knight

Recommended Posts

A copy & paste from my O posting because I'm lazy.

Just saw it last night. I loved it, but I loved Batman Begins more. Strangely, I didn't like how superheroey it was. That's what I loved about the previous film - it wasn't a tights-n-capes brawlin' movie so much as it was an examination of what could happen if somebody threw up their hands and decided to be Batman in the real world. TDK had hints of that aspect, but it wasn't the central focus like it was before, and that changed the tone of the movie for me.

But still, I adored it. I managed to avoid spoilers of Harvey's face, so that big reveal was genuinely shocking, and actually said "that was so fucking cool" aloud after the Joker

blew up the hospital

. Loved the message behind his character,

that the public at large was every bit as responsible for the anarchy Gotham had fallen into as he was, but I thought they killed it by never delivering on the exploding boats. I was sure he'd actually given each crew the detonator to their own vessel, and by damning the other ship, they'd instead be damning themselves. I felt the movie needed that big explosion after the "here we go," even if it would've spoiled the feel-good ending, because that was pretty much the point of the whole movie. Those boats would've been at the bottom of the lake within thirty seconds in the real world.

It's a horrible shame that Ledger won't be able to deliver a swan song, because he clearly had unfinished business at the end of this film.

For argument's sake: http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/opinions/...d-5-i-didnt.php

Edited to include spoiler tags. Whups. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Harvey's dead in the shotting script but it's not like he was torn apart by wildebeests...considering that the villain you expected to come back seeing as he's the new boss of Gotham won't be, you never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Mike did you see the homage to Tim Burton's Batman at the end. Lol, thought that might make a gripe, lol

What homage was that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Mike did you see the homage to Tim Burton's Batman at the end. Lol, thought that might make a gripe, lol

What homage was that?

At the end of The Dark Knight when The Joker falls and almost dies the same way Nicholsen's Joker died, but than Batman saved him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think that was an homage, but I did notice it and thought to myself, "Not again!"

I do admit I enjoyed the original 89 Batman, but if it would have happened that same way, it would have disappointed me. I have no problem seeing Batman kill someone, because in the beginning he did kill criminals. It was until a few issues after Robin's first appearance did he start making an attempt not to kill, its just that would have been a cop out of an ending for The Joker. I'm glad they didn't, but I do feel like it was an homage.

How about Gordan's crooked partner in Batman Begins? That reminds me of Eckhart in Batman(1989), remember he was crooked too and working with Carl Grissoms mob group.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the thing: Batman didn't ever really kill people. To quote something I once wrote elsewhere: Batman killed monsters and a vampire, and he also willingly let some thugs die. But it never seemed to me like he meant for those guys to die. For example, he punched a crook who stumbled into a vat of acid. He also threw a statuette at another guy who subsequently lost his balance and tumbled out an open window. Both times it's unclear if he meant to kill the men. Afterwards he was callous about the deaths, sure, but that's still true today.

And even if you say Batman killed those guys, you have to take into account DC's multiple realities. Those stories took place on Earth-Two, so it's a different Batman than the one we've been reading about for decades now. In fact, that Batman is dead. The Batman we're most familiar (Earth-One / New Earth) has never killed.

Gordon having a crooked partner predates Burton's Batman. In Year One Gordon's partner is as shady as they come.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's the thing: Batman didn't ever really kill people. To quote something I once wrote elsewhere: Batman killed monsters and a vampire, and he also willingly let some thugs die. But it never seemed to me like he meant for those guys to die. For example, he punched a crook who stumbled into a vat of acid. He also threw a statuette at another guy who subsequently lost his balance and tumbled out an open window. Both times it's unclear if he meant to kill the men. Afterwards he was callous about the deaths, sure, but that's still true today.

And even if you say Batman killed those guys, you have to take into account DC's multiple realities. Those stories took place on Earth-Two, so it's a different Batman than the one we've been reading about for decades now. In fact, that Batman is dead. The Batman we're most familiar (Earth-One / New Earth) has never killed.

Gordon having a crooked partner predates Burton's Batman. In Year One Gordon's partner is as shady as they come.

Yeah, you are right, its always left as a question marks as to whether or not he meant to let those men die or not, but he was more about doing whatever it took to get the thugs off the streets(and I mean in 1939-1941). After Robin showed up he managed to save a few more lives, lol.

In terms of Gordan's crooked partner, I do know about it coming from the books, but do you think Eckhart is based off of that. There both chubby, but know Gordan(although, in Burton's we don't know if he's a partner or just a fellow cop) and both work both sides of the law.

Now that Rachel Dawes is out of the way, would you like them to bring Vicki Vale back for the 3rd film. Maybe as a Bruce Wayne love interest, with Catwoman coming in to be Batman's. The only gripe I had with Batman Begins was Vicki Vale wasn't there(just like how they treated Gwen Stacy in the Spider-Man franchise, ugh), whereas in the original comics she was his fiance and after a year she started to expect him for being Batman and decided to break it off, cause she knew she could never ask him to quit. He of course, never found out that she knew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think that was an homage, but I did notice it and thought to myself, "Not again!"

It was definetly supposed to conjure up thoughts of that movie, and i felt it was sort of challenging it. The scenes in the street with the bat-pod and the truck were definetly loving homages to the Burton film as well. Pieces of the Elfman score show up in the movie as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

saw it last night. Ledger exceeded my expectations! i though he would just play a cold blooded killer, but he got the mix of psycho and clown just right for me!

especially with the multiple origins of the scars! i loved Nurse Joker, all in all Ledger stole the show and it will be shit if/when they make the third one as that was the best portrayal of the joker i have ever seen!

also killing Harvey two-face was wrong, batman killed him in my opinion. Though i did like he had the two-face nickname before he became two face. It was great they played up the fact that he wouldn't kill the people if they got the good side of the coin, but still beat the shit out of them, but not to death. Shame they couldn't do the duality stuff.

Still i loved it, and am going to see it again later today!

yay!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So here's basically who they have left to use villain-wise:

Bane: Very good chance of happening at some point, though he'd likely be more of a side villain than the main one, I think.

Catwoman: It could work, and you know they're going to try it at some point, but I really... really don't want them to. Pretend she doesn't exist, please.

Clayface: Never happening.

Deadshot: Could work really well as a side villain, but chances are slim.

Hush: See Bane, though probability is quite a bit lower.

Killer Croc: See Clayface.

Mad Hatter: My dark horse pick for a villain. The darker pedophilic version would be really unsettling on-screen. Wiki says he was one of Joker's thugs in TDK, but I didn't see him.

Mr. Freeze: Only if played by a bald Christopher Lloyd. Even then, probably not happening.

Penguin: I think they could tie him into the mob stuff pretty easily. He's weird, but definately dark enough to work.

Poison Ivy: She'd have to be massively changed. Otherwise, no chance.

Riddler: Most likely out of all of them. He's going to be really difficult to pull off without becoming a cartoon character. Cast either David Tennant or David Hyde Pierce. Otherwise, they shouldn't bother.

Hugo Strange: He'd work fine, but he's not nearly as well known depite being around for so long.

Scarface: Nope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So here's basically who they have left to use villain-wise:

Bane: Very good chance of happening at some point, though he'd likely be more of a side villain than the main one, I think.

Catwoman: It could work, and you know they're going to try it at some point, but I really... really don't want them to. Pretend she doesn't exist, please.

Clayface: Never happening.

Deadshot: Could work really well as a side villain, but chances are slim.

Hush: See Bane, though probability is quite a bit lower.

Killer Croc: See Clayface.

Mad Hatter: My dark horse pick for a villain. The darker pedophilic version would be really unsettling on-screen. Wiki says he was one of Joker's thugs in TDK, but I didn't see him.

Mr. Freeze: Only if played by a bald Christopher Lloyd. Even then, probably not happening.

Penguin: I think they could tie him into the mob stuff pretty easily. He's weird, but definately dark enough to work.

Poison Ivy: She'd have to be massively changed. Otherwise, no chance.

Riddler: Most likely out of all of them. He's going to be really difficult to pull off without becoming a cartoon character. Cast either David Tennant or David Hyde Pierce. Otherwise, they shouldn't bother.

Hugo Strange: He'd work fine, but he's not nearly as well known depite being around for so long.

Scarface: Nope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm buzzing, just buzzing right now. SO fucking awesome. For the record, the Two Face "death" can easily be rectified - the rule of thumb for CBMs is that you pretty much have to be decapitated on screen to be properly dead and unavailable for sequels. Whilst I wish there were better examples, think of Shredder in TMNT 1 & 2.

Ledger was incredible, as was Eckhart and Oldman. Bale was cool, although I wish we got a bit more Wayne (although the white lense Batman more than made up for that). The rest of the cast was perfectly serviceable - I was pretty surprised Lau got burnt to a crisp, even with little attention paid to it. Joker's pencil trick and his scene with Two Face were particular highlights, whilst Two Face holding Gordon's family hostage was pretty damn chilling. Damn, I loved this movie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And again I must ask. If Two Face is alive, what the hell is there left to do with him? His entire arc was slapped onto the end of this movie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And again I must ask. If Two Face is alive, what the hell is there left to do with him? His entire arc was slapped onto the end of this movie.

The movie could have him, trying to find a sort of redemption, but having the conflict f his darker half. Remember he almost did kill someone and even flipped a coin before becoming Two-Face to decide whether he would or not. Batman had to stop him.

I frankly don't want any villain to be used who was used in previous films. Penguin, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze, etc unless they are given a decent story. Don't just put them in because they want to make us happy.

I saw someone post about adding Killer Croc, they did say never happen, but another reason is that he was used in Batman: Gotham Knight and believe he was killed. It is in continuity, so they won't use him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I say Knightfall is easiest to do in the next film. Just have Jean-Paul Valley showing up as a second slightly more violent vigilante in gothem at the start, possily a leftover trainee from Ras' League, someone who Bruce trained alongside and thus they know and recognise each other. Bane devises a way to take down the batman by freeing all the Arkham inmates to soften him up, delivering a very public beating and putting Bruce out of action for a time. JPV takes up the mantle of the Bat in order to save the icon in the eyes of the city and in doing so becomes the sort of Batman that Bruce was never willing to be, one who will sacrifice the lives of evil men. Bruce sees what the new Batman has done with his legacy and the two have a face-off to end the film. Two-Face could be a running villian throughout, the guy who we see each Batman's methods enacted against.

Loved TDK by the way, it totally lived up to the hype.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And again I must ask. If Two Face is alive, what the hell is there left to do with him? His entire arc was slapped onto the end of this movie.

The movie could have him, trying to find a sort of redemption, but having the conflict f his darker half. Remember he almost did kill someone and even flipped a coin before becoming Two-Face to decide whether he would or not. Batman had to stop him.

I frankly don't want any villain to be used who was used in previous films. Penguin, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze, etc unless they are given a decent story. Don't just put them in because they want to make us happy.

I saw someone post about adding Killer Croc, they did say never happen, but another reason is that he was used in Batman: Gotham Knight and believe he was killed. It is in continuity, so they won't use him.

Actually when he did that coin flip, it was still a two headed coin, that meant the guy would've survived no matter what. batman said to him"you can't put a mans life on the line by chance" and dent says "I'm not" that scene was just dent bluffing.

also don't forget that the joker is still alive and said he had fun with batman and will fight him again, the sad thing is that ledger won't play joker as once again he was fantastic. Scarecrow is still alive and well, well he's insane but he's not dead.

The next most realistic villain they can do is the riddler, I'm not saying that as a riddler fan, I'm saying that as he is the most recognisable villain after two-face and the joker. Hush can't work as Rachel is Bruce's best friend in this universe.

Knight-fall may work with Bruce still grieving over Rachel, who was the weakest person in the cast of the Dark knight. Right now if Nolan was coming back for a third movie i would trust his decision no matter what as he actually made the movies better than i was expectations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And again I must ask. If Two Face is alive, what the hell is there left to do with him? His entire arc was slapped onto the end of this movie.

Oh, I agree - I don't know exactly where Nolan & Co would go with a third film/second sequel so a role for Two Face in itself is hard to think up. I just want a reference from Gordon or Batman that he's alive in some capacity because I HATE villain deaths. And with Ledger's Joker out of the picture for another sequel, I think people are looking to Two Face for some brief semblance of continuity, even just in the way Crane was used here. If I were to hazard a guess as to how to include Two Face, Dent gets free of being secretly held in Arkham or whatever, causing the idea struck by Batman at the end of TDK to be rendered moot by Dent's exposed villany and Batman fights to become a symbol of good in Dent's place to finally win over Gotham.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Either way, we're definately never seeing Joker again. I don't think they'd risk tarnishing Ledger's performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Ventriloquist/Scarface.

I think him and the Mad Hatter would be all kinds of awesome, but neither are well known enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.