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JackFetch

Avengers movie

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I was being glib when I said I only read the first line. I just don't have a lot of time to argue on the internet these days. I read the first two. That's because comparing a modern film that has been in the works for five years and has had hundreds of millions of dollars thrown towards it with a disposable comic book that was being made by guys barely making a living wage 50 years ago is a ridiculous premise.

Which is also something I addressed.

I've been reading the original Lee/Kirby Avengers run, and it's exactly the same as the movie in a lot of ways. Their origin story was basically just "Loki's doing some shit; let's go stop him. Hey, we should be a team!" No characters get developed whatsoever.

Now, I don't mean to suggest that modern movies should follow the storytelling tenets (and limitations) of silver-age comic books, but I am saying that there is huge precedent for this type of story. You can call it standard, traditional, or normal, but I think if it's done well (as The Avengers is), it might be more accurate to call it classic. Yes, if you're judging it based on certain criteria that other stories utilize then it falls well short, but considering that this is a single episode in what is basically an ongoing saga, I don't think it's fair to judge it negatively for focusing on the traditional aspects of the superhero story—especially when just making this movie work at all was probably a Herculean feat.

Sorry; next time I'll just cram my entire premise into 140 characters or less.

I don't mean to infer that you're wrong for not enjoying it as much as everyone else. We've all got our tastes. I just think the movie's not as objectively deeply flawed as you say.

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Wow.

You can't just let a guy have an opinion, can you?

You nailed it, by the way. I am simply incapable of reading anything longer than 140 characters. It has nothing to do with the fact that I just plain don't like you very much and don't read most of your posts. Nothing to do with that, I'm sure.

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I don't disagree with what Des is saying about the simplicity of the of the movie. I just didn't think it makes that much difference to what this movie was trying to do, which was give fanboys a joygasm, appealing to movie buffs in general was secondary. And like Des said, he paid to see it twice, so it's not a complete pile of shit, it's just not awards worthy either. Safe was a good word to describe it, all it had to do was not shit on fans and it would be a huge success. Once Marvel started going down the Avengers path, and the lead in films were successful, they were probably always going to go safe. That said, giving a $200m budget to a relative first timer was risky for Marvel, so maybe Joss was being safe, not the studio?

I thought some downside was upside, not everyone had an involved story arc, but that was because they were trying hard to give everyone equal screen time (ish). I thought what they did with Hawkeye was good for someone with no other set-up. I'm also aware that there are going to be 3 Avengers movies, so some things that were missing might be still to come.

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I thought it was a great, fun, film. It's got some issues, admittedly, but I really didn't care, it was just crazy fun.

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This was easily the most crowd pleasing comic book film of all time. All the jokes were funny, the action was great, the serious moments earned its drama, and a good time was had by all.

How I've been using to describe it is by saying that this is the best superhero movie ever made, but not the best comic book movie. Subjective defining of the terms, but I'll elaborate. While everything else that's come before were movies adapting characters from the comics and told their individual stories, The Avengers was concentrated less on adapting themes and storylines from the comics and more on being a really solid definition on what makes a super hero film work. This could have been a wholly original creation isolated from comic books and it still would've been great. The plot was very basic and simple, and no one I feel should really complain about it because no one paid for the plot. They paid for the entertainment the movie promised with the hype it brought.

On the flip side, is it the best comic book movie? No, I don't think so. The Dark Knight still takes it lunch in terms of projecting what defines heroics and the characters' motivations with the story it's telling. I also tend to think the first two Spider-Man films and X-Men fims came off as better movies because they were played a bit more believably while still embracing their comic book roots. But who care? The Avengers was every bit as happy and unapolegtic about its comic book origins as a movie could get. It was FUN.

I thought all the actiing was solid. The principal cast did an excellent job. I walked in excited to see Loki again, as he was the breakout character IMO in the Thor movie, and he did not dissapoint. He's evil without being a moustache twirler, he's sinister without being somewhat sympathetic, he's smart without being a know-it-all and you believe him in his actions. He's probably the best Marvel adapted movie villain there's ever been.

Mark Ruffalo's Hulk/Bruce Banner was terrific. I need to see the film a second time to pin down exactly how different his performance is from the other Hulks, but there was something about it that made the role feel especially tragic. The line about him putting a gun in his mouth and pulling the trigger only for the Hulk to spit it out had to have been from the comics somewhere (I think that happened when someone sniped BB once) but it underlined the curse that being the Hulk embodies. That guy WAS Bruce Banner all the way.

Obviously with the amount of money its made, the movie is an unparalled success. I am interested to see how TDKR will stack up in terms of box office numbers comparatively. Is there any chance TDKR won't be as good if not better than the Avengers? PFFT, no! But still, that's not important. The Avengers is awesome all on its own, and people should see it.

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A lot of studio marketing nonsense analysis went into the development of this story. Iron Man's dominance is proof of that. Whedon knows these characters. He knows Cap is supposed to be the team leader. He knows that Cap could take any one of the Avengers in a fight through sheer tactical genius. But marketing wisdom dictated that RDJ be the leading man. That much was out of Whedon's hands.

We cover this briefly in our Dread Media review. Check it out.

To not like the Avengers means you want Loki to win. That's been proven by science.

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It has nothing to do with the fact that I just plain don't like you very much and don't read most of your posts. Nothing to do with that, I'm sure.

I often have trouble figuring out when you're being exaggeratedly glib or pointedly glib. Too much dickish attitude in the way.

In any case, it seems like this has become more about you and me than about the actual movie, and that doesn't belong in this thread. Truce?

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A lot of studio marketing nonsense analysis went into the development of this story. Iron Man's dominance is proof of that. Whedon knows these characters. He knows Cap is supposed to be the team leader. He knows that Cap could take any one of the Avengers in a fight through sheer tactical genius. But marketing wisdom dictated that RDJ be the leading man. That much was out of Whedon's hands.

We cover this briefly in our Dread Media review. Check it out.

To not like the Avengers means you want Loki to win. That's been proven by science.

While watching the movie, I was thinking about the Civil War run and about the Iron Man / Cap dynamic about who the leader is. I don't think the Cap movie did a job of showing he is a tactical genius, just a kid with a big heart, so for the first Avengers movie it wasn't a bad idea to have IM as the figure head. I wouldn't be surprised if they end the trilogy with Cap being the undisputed leader of the team.

And I always want Loki to win, if only because he's so much fun!

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I don't think the Cap movie did a job of showing he is a tactical genius, just a kid with a big heart, so for the first Avengers movie it wasn't a bad idea to have IM as the figure head. I wouldn't be surprised if they end the trilogy with Cap being the undisputed leader of the team.

Cap only had brief moments referencing his tactical mind, like the fact that he was able to precisely remember the layout of every Hydra base with a glance and coordinated the Commandos' attack plans. Yeah, I'd like to see that aspect of his character developed more in the future.

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Marvel's The Avengers has posted the biggest domestic opening weekend of all time with $207.4 million for May 4-6, The Walt Disney Studios announced today. The previous record of $169.2 million was held by Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part 2 last year. The Super Hero team-up crossed the $600 million threshold at the global box office in 12 days, and its cumulative worldwide box office gross is an estimated $654.8 million.

http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/170517-the-avengers-opens-bigger-than-expected-with-2074-million

Hulk smashes puny record!

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A lot of studio marketing nonsense analysis went into the development of this story. Iron Man's dominance is proof of that. Whedon knows these characters. He knows Cap is supposed to be the team leader. He knows that Cap could take any one of the Avengers in a fight through sheer tactical genius. But marketing wisdom dictated that RDJ be the leading man. That much was out of Whedon's hands.

Sure, but he’s also the most interesting personality of the Avengers team. I’d have given him the most screen time too. I thought the Captain America movie was kind of dull. I liked Cap more here, but he’s still the least interesting of the main four heroes.

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I think Tony Stark's character, at this point, is a little bit overplayed. We get it; he's a hilarious narcissist engineer genius. But is that all there is to him?

They hinted at it here with him pulling the Jesus move from Superman Returns, but still. I find the movie versions of Cap, Thor, and Hulk to all be more interesting and likable than Tony, if only because it seems like the people at Marvel don't want Tony to grow up and stop being somewhat of a joke unto himself.

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A lot of studio marketing nonsense analysis went into the development of this story. Iron Man's dominance is proof of that. Whedon knows these characters. He knows Cap is supposed to be the team leader. He knows that Cap could take any one of the Avengers in a fight through sheer tactical genius. But marketing wisdom dictated that RDJ be the leading man. That much was out of Whedon's hands.

How do you know all this?

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There was an interview with Whedon on Wired that said Cap was originally supposed to be the POV character, but Marvel vetoed that.

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A lot of studio marketing nonsense analysis went into the development of this story. Iron Man's dominance is proof of that. Whedon knows these characters. He knows Cap is supposed to be the team leader. He knows that Cap could take any one of the Avengers in a fight through sheer tactical genius. But marketing wisdom dictated that RDJ be the leading man. That much was out of Whedon's hands.

Sure, but he’s also the most interesting personality of the Avengers team. I’d have given him the most screen time too. I thought the Captain America movie was kind of dull. I liked Cap more here, but he’s still the least interesting of the main four heroes.

That's fine, but Iron Man has had three movies now to develop his character. I've had my fill of him. Captain America, on the other hand, has a lot more potential. His fish out of water, 21st century thing was played mostly for laughs in The Avengers but I'd like to see that idea explored in a standalone film where he gets himself up to speed.

Also, Avengers hints that Cap is starting to realizing that SHIELD may not share his core American values. It's actually the catalyst for him to stop trying to make the others comply with SHIELD and, instead, re-orients himself to the new team dynamic. I for one would like to see this idea explored. A Cap sequel should send Cap out to explore the new America to try to find his place in it. What an opportunity for internal struggle! Will his traditional American values be swallowed by the vapid pop culture of this future America? I'd also like to see more of the "tactical genius" I mentioned in previous posts. He needs to reassert his leadership skills in this age of high tech war. I think Captain America could be a really interesting character. More interesting than Iron Man, even.

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What I really want to see in the Captain America sequel would be Baron Zemo. There's enough gap time in the first movie that they could have flashbacks to Cap fighting the original Zemo and then his son in the present. Maybe Zemo as the head of a revived Hydra that's covertly infiltrated America.

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I kinda want Bucky/The Winter Soldier to show up, if we're going for the "man out of time" angle.

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BTW, just realized that I haven't seen anyone say they hated the way Thor just appeared out of nowhere with just a throwaway suggestion (not even a real explanation) about why he was able to appear back on Earth since you know the bridge between realms was destroyed in Thor, keeping Thor on Asgard.

THAT's called being able to explain things well without over exposition!

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What I really want to see in the Captain America sequel would be Baron Zemo. There's enough gap time in the first movie that they could have flashbacks to Cap fighting the original Zemo and then his son in the present. Maybe Zemo as the head of a revived Hydra that's covertly infiltrated America.

I'd like that too. Hawkeye and Black Widow would certainly be welcome in that action. How about the Falcon? An early sidekick partner for Cap.

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Ok. More speculation and dreaming. Assuming they drop Hawkeye for Avengers 2 (which they probably should) which new character should be introduced? My vote goes to THE VISION!

Any others?

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Of the characters they can use (since Scarlet Witch is technically an X-Men characters), I'd go with Ms. Marvel and Black Panther. This is partially for characters they can split off into their own movies rather well and partially since they are just interesting characters in their own right.

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Of the characters they can use (since Scarlet Witch is technically an X-Men characters), I'd go with Ms. Marvel and Black Panther. This is partially for characters they can split off into their own movies rather well and partially since they are just interesting characters in their own right.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Ms. Marvel is a great choice since she can be connected to SHIELD, up the number of women on the team, and she brings a lot of firepower.

Although, strangely, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver might actually be within Disney's rights as well as Fox's to use, since even though they're mutants, they're almost more well-established as Avengers. Kind of like how Wolverine originally appeared in the Hulk comics, but he's considered an X-Men character.

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