Final Crisis

[SuaveStar]

Thats how they kill Bruce Wayne.

I read the spoilers, I was so looking forward to reading the end of my favourite comic character, and that's it.

I think I'll wait till issue 7 comes out and I'll pick up both then.

Fuck.

[Koete]

To each their own, but if I'm going to go down fighting and sacrifice myself to save the planet, I'd like to die killing a god that is the embodiment of hopelessness.

Plus, there's one issue left to go. He might not be as dead as we're lead to believe.

[SuaveStar]

Oh it is good how they do it.

I just don't like how I've been waiting for this for so long and by what people say here, Batman gets four pages in an issue I was hoping would be about Batman from start to end. Or having a major part in the issue.

[Delete]

To be fair there was a Batman Final Crisis Tie-in issue.

[Koete]

To be fair there was a Batman Final Crisis Tie-in issue.

Two in fact, which served as a retrospective of Batman's career. And if you really think about it, Morrison's entire run has been a tribute to what makes Batman such a great character. A fitting send off I'd say.

[Delete]

I do find their killing of their most popular character odd though. Especially since his return is going to end up wacky like he is magically brought back or time machines or he becomes one of the main rainbows of Lanterns that are out there now.

[Dread]

I stand in the corner of Malpractice and Koete.

Morrison isn't even done with Batman. Don't worry. I didn't want to see 40 pages of Batman. That's why i buy Batman. I wanted a FC book and that's what I got...and then some.

There's too much going on with Luthor, Mister Miracle and Uotan Nix (or whatever) to say anything for certain. Plus, didn't we just see a machine that can make thought reality? Yes we did.

I thought it was fitting for Batman's final act to be involved with a gunshot. It's how he began and it is how he "ended." I loved it. I loved the reaction it caused and I love the rallying cry that will happen next issue.

Stavros, re:

This is in every way the anti secret invasion, poorly built and almost completely under-explored.

I agree, this is the anti-SI. In that it was good. But poorly built? I call bullshit on that. Under-explored? Have you been reading this book? The whole fucking series has been an exploration on hope versus despair and we have finally seen that hope can win. This is epic. Not a bunch of tights fighting in a jungle with a juvenile ending.

[Molly]

Wait

Batman fucking shot Darksied?

That is both the best and most horrifying thing I've ever thought of in comic-dom. I... speechless.

[Koete]

Wait

Batman fucking shot Darksied?

That is both the best and most horrifying thing I've ever thought of in comic-dom. I... speechless.

Yep. With the Radion bullet that killed Orion in the first issue.

[Dread]

Wait

Batman fucking shot Darksied?

That is both the best and most horrifying thing I've ever thought of in comic-dom. I... speechless.

Yep. With the Radion bullet that killed Orion in the first issue.

Exactly.

Darkseid, in effect, brought about his own demise

[Delete]

I stand in the corner of Malpractice and Koete.

Morrison isn't even done with Batman. Don't worry. I didn't want to see 40 pages of Batman. That's why i buy Batman. I wanted a FC book and that's what I got...and then some.

There's too much going on with Luthor, Mister Miracle and Uotan Nix (or whatever) to say anything for certain. Plus, didn't we just see a machine that can make thought reality? Yes we did.

I thought it was fitting for Batman's final act to be involved with a gunshot. It's how he began and it is how he "ended." I loved it. I loved the reaction it caused and I love the rallying cry that will happen next issue.

Stavros, re:

This is in every way the anti secret invasion, poorly built and almost completely under-explored.

I agree, this is the anti-SI. In that it was good. But poorly built? I call bullshit on that. Under-explored? Have you been reading this book? The whole fucking series has been an exploration on hope versus despair and we have finally seen that hope can win. This is epic. Not a bunch of tights fighting in a jungle with a juvenile ending.

Slow down on hope winning. The story isn't over yet.

[Dread]

I know. That's the best part. I'm not sold on hope winning.

I'm saying we finally see that they can win. For this series the heroes have been getting trounced and assimilated left and right. Now they're going to put up a fight. Which will make it all the more powerful if they lose.

[Stavros]

Stavros, re:

This is in every way the anti secret invasion, poorly built and almost completely under-explored.

I agree, this is the anti-SI. In that it was good. But poorly built? I call bullshit on that. Under-explored? Have you been reading this book? The whole fucking series has been an exploration on hope versus despair and we have finally seen that hope can win. This is epic. Not a bunch of tights fighting in a jungle with a juvenile ending.

Poorly built- Countdown. I don't think you can really dispute that Countdown was a failure, and its stated purpose was to lead to Final Crisis.

Under-explored- I feel like I'm getting half the story. This could have used 12 issues to really capture the whole deal, 7 feels like short-shrift, especially since the crisisy stuff only really kicked in just now. Its good, but there's a bunch of stuff missing, like I'm getting a 45 minute recap show bringing me up to date on a 3 season epic.

[Malpractice]

I agree, this is the anti-SI. In that it was good.

:laugh:

But poorly built? I call bullshit on that. Under-explored? Have you been reading this book? The whole fucking series has been an exploration on hope versus despair and we have finally seen that hope can win. This is epic. Not a bunch of tights fighting in a jungle with a juvenile ending.

Agreed, Morrison has been building this story up literally for more than a decade (JLA, Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, etc.). And as Des pointed out, this whole series is exploration on many different levels. I also love how in such a grim story with such a hopeless setting we get to see the heroes at their best and most heroic which isn't something i can't say for other such event stories cough*identitycrisisinfinitecrisiscivilwarsecretinvasion*cough. Morrison is really showing us why these characters are so great, and it all goes back to the original tagline. Heroes Die. Legends Live Forever.

[batcavejanitor]

Ok...Malpractice, Preston Nelson, and Koete...my original complaint wasn't that I didn't like the way Batman went out. I think it's awesome that Batman (a man) shot and killed a god. That part is killer. What disappoints me the most, and for the first time since I was 9 years old makes me want to stop reading Batman, is that I feel like Grant Morrison is manipulating me.

First (and somewhat off topic)...lets not pretend that Batman is the only one who's ever taken out Darkseind. Superman threw him into the f***ing Source Wall (where he stayed until Superman had to take him out). In Kingdom Come (which I know isn't in official continuity but worth noting) Orion deposed Darkseid, thus fulfilling the prophecy that he would be killed by his own son.

Back on the topic at hand...I mainly feel like Grant Morrison's has created a story line within the Batman mythos that can only be understood if I go out and buy all of his comics, each one promising me a great ending/reveal that will be worth the money...and so far that has been a lie.

I feel like I'm the fat kid who's been tricked to exercise by placing me on a treadmill and tying a twinky on a stick just baaarley out of reach.

Batman and Son ended on a open-ended cliffhanger ending, Resurection of Ra's al Ghul ended on a non-ending story wrap up, Batman RIP didn't finish Bruce's story, Final Crisis #6 has now shown his death but wait...in a recent interview with Grant Morrison from wizard he says, "I'm coming back to this story." then..."And I keep on stressing for people not to think of this as death. This is part of the story. There's more cool sh-- to come." there's more..."The story is not by any means over."

GREAT! So now I have to buy more of his crap!

I just HATE being strung a long. I feel like he knows I'm loyal to the character and unless they cancel the title I'm going to keep buying...no matter how badly they treat my favorite character. Blue Beetle got his own big story, Superman got his own HUGE story line, Tim Drake's f'ing Dad got a big climax, Batman...got a couple of pages in between fighting tigers and a battle in Blüdhaven. But wait! 'The quick and easy death is justifiable because it's not really the end of the story. It's not over. Save your money. I'll really reveal what I want to do with Bruce in my NEXT title...make sure to buy it.'

And I DO have issues with the way he went out. Batman...BATMAN...should get more respect than what he got in that issue.

*whew* My apologies for the lengthiness of this post...got kinda carried away.

Screw Grant Morrison. He owns me $4 f'ing 25 and a good Batman story (that doesn't make me want to shoot myself).

[Molly]

-Batman and Son and RIP are just as big as anything Superman has had recently, and better written.

-And the reason Blue Beetle got a big storyline was because he's *not* coming back and Jack Drake was a plot device for Tim's development. And they're both dead. Dead dead. Like severely unlikely to ever comeback, totally unlike Bruce.

-I just don't understand your argument, you're upset that Morrison isn't killing off Bats for good? I mean, your complaint seems to be that Batman isn't getting any huge finale... right after he *shot* Darksied, killing him and all but saving the world.

[batcavejanitor]

My main arguments are as follows:

A- Someone "killing" Batman was inevitable, someone was going to eventually try it. And I know DC isn't going to kill Bruce Wayne permanently. So I'm ok with a solid kill Batman attempt...I just didn't like the way it went down (matter of opinion I guess)

B- I feel like Grant Morrison strings a long the readers with promises of great reveals and great endings that never happen. I don't mind doing some back tracking and catching up if the end result is going to be awesome (or if I'm promised an end result in general) but I feel like every time I get to what I think is the end, Morrison wants me to read and buy even more (because what I just finished reading wasn't really the ending). And if I don't read and buy more than the next story won't make sense...which I feel is a MAJOR push to get me to spend money rather than just enjoy a good comic.

[Molly]

So Morrison is trying to sell comics, by telling great, intriguing stories... and this is something wrong? I mean, he should *want* people to keep reading what he writes.

[Koete]

First (and somewhat off topic)...lets not pretend that Batman is the only one who's ever taken out Darkseind. Superman threw him into the f***ing Source Wall (where he stayed until Superman had to take him out). In Kingdom Come (which I know isn't in official continuity but worth noting) Orion deposed Darkseid, thus fulfilling the prophecy that he would be killed by his own son.

True, but has a mere, puny human being ever killed Darkseid?

Back on the topic at hand...I mainly feel like Grant Morrison's has created a story line within the Batman mythos that can only be understood if I go out and buy all of his comics, each one promising me a great ending/reveal that will be worth the money...and so far that has been a lie.

While there are certainly elements of his run that serve as clues and allusions to "R.I.P.", and reading his entire run is a better reading experience for it, I believe that each one can be enjoyed on its own. Especially the "Club of Heroes" story.

Batman and Son ended on a open-ended cliffhanger ending, Resurection of Ra's al Ghul ended on a non-ending story wrap up, Batman RIP didn't finish Bruce's story, Final Crisis #6 has now shown his death but wait...in a recent interview with Grant Morrison from wizard he says, "I'm coming back to this story." then..."And I keep on stressing for people not to think of this as death. This is part of the story. There's more cool sh-- to come." there's more..."The story is not by any means over."

GREAT! So now I have to buy more of his crap!

I don't think you can put the blame on Morrison for Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul; from my POV, that seemed to be an event thought up by DC that Grant had to work into his ongoing story. I can't even remember if it was his job to end it or not (nope-it was Dini's). And R.I.P. was never meant to finish Bruce's story. Now from all of DC's hype and marketing I'm sure that's what a lot of people were lead to believe, but Morrison never said it would be about Batman dying. It was just another arc in his run. And I don't think Morrison is feeding you a load of marketing, I think he really does have more cool shit coming up. I'm also glad that instead of killing Batman and then running off, Grant's continuing the story the crafted. And really, he's the only writer who can continue it.

I just HATE being strung a long. I feel like he knows I'm loyal to the character and unless they cancel the title I'm going to keep buying...no matter how badly they treat my favorite character. Blue Beetle got his own big story, Superman got his own HUGE story line, Tim Drake's f'ing Dad got a big climax, Batman...got a couple of pages in between fighting tigers and a battle in Blüdhaven. But wait! 'The quick and easy death is justifiable because it's not really the end of the story. It's not over. Save your money. I'll really reveal what I want to do with Bruce in my NEXT title...make sure to buy it.'

Grant has already revealed what he wanted to do with Bruce: he wanted to prove he was the ultimate human. And by surviving the psychological attack from The Black Glove, using his thoughts as a weapon, and killing a god that is the embodiment of evil and hoplessness, he has done just that. And I strongly take issue with the sentiment that Morrison treated Batman badly. He treated him with a great deal of respect. He wouldn't have written "R.I.P." or "Last Rites" if he wanted to treat the character badly. He wouldn't have made the various fifties concepts he brought back relevant again if he wanted to treat the character badly. He wouldn't have had Bruce sacrifice his life to save the Earth if he wanted to treat the character badly.

Screw Grant Morrison. He owns me $4 f'ing 25 and a good Batman story (that doesn't make me want to shoot myself).

To each their own, but for me, Morrison gave me one of the greatest and most interesting Batman stories I have ever read. I don't think he owes me anything.

[Dread]

I'm not going to say much because Koete said it all.

He told the greatest Batman story not by breaking his back, not by destroying his city and not by killing his metaphorical children. He did so by proving he was the biggest hero ever.

Back to FC. In theory it really shouldn't be working, but it is on every level. It makes COIE look small but is still much easier to understand. This is my favorite DC event yet.

[batcavejanitor]

Well, to each his own.

I don't think Grant Morrison is the worse human ever (I enjoyed 52), I have lots of trades both in Batman and in other charecters that I want to catch up on (Green Arrow and Marvel's Civil War), and Tony Daniel's 'Battle of the Cowl' looks interesting. I think I might take a break from Morrison but there's no way I'm going to let a story I didn't enjoy ruin a character for me. Batman will always be around.

The story disappointed me but I don't want to come off a lunatic who's pulling their hair out or hunting down Grant. I haven't enjoyed his run as much as I did some others...life will move on.

[Luke]

I'm going to stay out of the Morrison/Batman debate, and just say three small things;

1. I'm loving Final Crisis to death.

2. That final page of issue 6 absolutely blew me away.

3. Issue 7 plz.

[SuaveStar]

I retract my previous statments, as I have now read issue 6.

Batman fucking owns on every level right now.

Also did anyone else see the ad for the the battle for the cowl at the back?

I cannot wait for march, and I have to say:

They better release a two-face as Batman figure, as i want one! He looks awesome.

[prez]

As someone who reads all comics long after publishing date now, I have been trying very hard to keep up with Final Crisis and Secret Invasion.

I thought Secret Invasion was dope, although leaving open-ended plotlines after a huge event pisses me off to no end. Final Crisis, though... I just don't get it. I've made no secret on other boards of my Morrison hate, but I just can't fathom everything that's going on with this event. So everything is changed... until the next event?

I can't keep up with DC's crossovers and LIFE-CHANGING FOREVER events. What used to be my favorite company is now really tiresome to keep up with. Do I like some of the Final Crisis things? Hell yes. Do I fucking hate some of the Final Crisis things? Hell yes.

I just dislike when writers feel the need to kill a long-standing character with a huge fanbase in order to move the story along. Is death the only plot anymore? That's creatively the best we can do? So now we've lost Beetle, J'onn, Bats and how many other people? And then fan demand will make the company bring them back in a year and a half.

Notice how little the mainstream media paid attention to this huge 'death.' They've given up on DC deaths, because they don't mean anything. Meanwhile, Marvel rules the box office and gets big layouts in USA Today for comics events.

[Dread]

I thought Secret Invasion was dope, although leaving open-ended plotlines after a huge event pisses me off to no end. Final Crisis, though... I just don't get it. I've made no secret on other boards of my Morrison hate, but I just can't fathom everything that's going on with this event. So everything is changed... until the next event?

This is different than Marvel how?

I just dislike when writers feel the need to kill a long-standing character with a huge fanbase in order to move the story along. Is death the only plot anymore? That's creatively the best we can do? So now we've lost Beetle, J'onn, Bats and how many other people? And then fan demand will make the company bring them back in a year and a half.

This is different than Marvel how?

Notice how little the mainstream media paid attention to this huge 'death.' They've given up on DC deaths, because they don't mean anything. Meanwhile, Marvel rules the box office and gets big layouts in USA Today for comics events.

This is...sorry. Batman got as much or more media attention at the end of RIP. They jumped the gun. At least they didn't spoil FC #6

I really have to call you on this. While you may not like FC you have to admit that Marvel is the company that goes from event to event with no breathing room in between. Civil War/World War Hulk/Secret Invasion/Dark Reign. DC hasn't had an event since Infinite Crisis.