Venneh Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 To be fair, it is kind of awkward in a franchise that's historically been about discrimination and civil rights, especially when it first debuted, that the only person who dies is the black mutant, and that the Latina mutant is the one to go eeeevil. I wouldn't out and out call it racist, cause as I understand there are no blatant references to slavery and then immediate zoom-ins/pans to Darwin (are there?), and as far as I can tell, both of them are treated as equal members of the team for the time they're in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 If you see racism in this movie, you're just looking for it. Heck, those two articles are just pointing out the absence of racism, in a movie that's not about racism... which is somehow still offensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 If you see racism in this movie, you're just looking for it. Heck, those two articles are just pointing out the absence of racism, in a movie that's not about racism... which is somehow still offensive. It's the old Ben Sisko argument, to depict a period of history as though everyone is equal when they weren't could be considered an offence to those who suffered at the time. I am not personally offended but I understand others right to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 I think that argument would work if the movie's plot actually had any points where racism would actually be dealt with. There's only one black character in the movie, and he only appears in, what, one scene? Maybe two? For what it's worth, it's not as though the movie glosses over discrimination. Moira is shown as a victim of sexism in the CIA, but that makes sense because it's a point that would logically arise because of the events shown in the film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothian Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 The entire foundation of the X-Men is about racism and civil rights. One of my biggest problems of First Class is how it mishandles the metaphors and DOES kill the black mutant whilst having the latina mutant (and later Mystique [maybe because she was the BLUE mutant?!?]) turn to the Brotherhood side. I didn't like how it was merely shoe-horned into the second half and its reprecussions on the main cast. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to argue K-Dubs, but I'm readying my Spacey-Luthor "WRONG!!!" clip.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 The entire foundation of the X-Men is about racism and civil rights. One of my biggest problems of First Class is how it mishandles the metaphors and DOES kill the black mutant whilst having the latina mutant (and later Mystique [maybe because she was the BLUE mutant?!?]) turn to the Brotherhood side. I didn't like how it was merely shoe-horned into the second half and its reprecussions on the main cast. To be fair, I think the entire secondary cast (except Beast) was mishandled. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to argue K-Dubs, but I'm readying my Spacey-Luthor "WRONG!!!" clip.... I'm basically saying that it's not a point that deserves to be dwelt upon to that degree. It's creating more controversy than is necessary. I could understand if people went "hmm, it's maybe not too great how three of the non-white mutants are either killed or join the dark side," but to go and condemn the movie over it is a bit much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You Know Who Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 The entire foundation of the X-Men is about racism and civil rights. One of my biggest problems of First Class is how it mishandles the metaphors If the Cuban Missile Crisis is the first time in this continuity that mutants make themselves known to the public at large, then it would make sense for the whole racism aspect of the X-Men to be almost non-existent in the film (outside of Magneto fearing the future Holocaust for mutants). Why would the government and the public at large fear and hate a group of people they don't know about? As for Darwin's death, that was unfortunate not just because of the "black-hero-has-to-die-first" cliche, but because he had a cool power. It especially would have been cool if he had joined Shaw's team, since he'd be much more difficult to beat than some girl with dragonfly wings. 500th post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venneh Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 If the Cuban Missile Crisis is the first time in this continuity that mutants make themselves known to the public at large, then it would make sense for the whole racism aspect of the X-Men to be almost non-existent in the film (outside of Magneto fearing the future Holocaust for mutants). Why would the government and the public at large fear and hate a group of people they don't know about? Let's see, off the top of my head of examples of groups that were hated and feared in the 60s from around this time: -Soviet Russians -Communists (this was only a little while after the McCarthy witch hunts, can also include Cubans, Chinese, East Germans, any of the sattelite states in mid/central Europe, Vietnamese) -Black people (see: ongoing civil rights battles in the south, Black Panthers, and MLK Jr) -Counterculture hippies (by blue-collar America) Basically, yes, there is a pretty strong precedent for hating/fearing the unknown, especially in the 60s. And KW, no one is saying that they're dismissing the entire movie because of that, but that it is fairly problematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You Know Who Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 If the Cuban Missile Crisis is the first time in this continuity that mutants make themselves known to the public at large, then it would make sense for the whole racism aspect of the X-Men to be almost non-existent in the film (outside of Magneto fearing the future Holocaust for mutants). Why would the government and the public at large fear and hate a group of people they don't know about? Let's see, off the top of my head of examples of groups that were hated and feared in the 60s from around this time: -Soviet Russians -Communists (this was only a little while after the McCarthy witch hunts, can also include Cubans, Chinese, East Germans, any of the sattelite states in mid/central Europe, Vietnamese) -Black people (see: ongoing civil rights battles in the south, Black Panthers, and MLK Jr) -Counterculture hippies (by blue-collar America) Basically, yes, there is a pretty strong precedent for hating/fearing the unknown, especially in the 60s. I interpreted Ian's gripe pertaining to anti-mutant sentiment not being shown in the film, Krueger, not fear and loathing during the decade as a whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venneh Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 First off, don't be an arrogant dick, I don't call you Honore. Second off, unless you're living in 60s fantasyland, then yes, the fear and loathing would exist, especially if you found out there were people who could get in your brain and bend metal. All of these things were major factors when the series was created, and in the time period as well, so yeah, there is an issue with them pretending it doesn't exist. It's not enough to condemn the movie, but acting like it doesn't exist is a pretty strong issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hey, Krueger, go make me a sandwich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venneh Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Oh, Dubs. If you weren't in Maryland, I would end you. Affectionately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 My post was a commentary on sexism, which was also prevalent in the 60s. And that's just plain wrong, kids. (Seriously though, turkey and mayo. Get to it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venneh Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Dude, by the time it actually gets to you via mail, it's going to be cold and possibly moldy. This will not end well. xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc20willsave Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Well, then someone better get driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venneh Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hah, I lack the money for a vehicle, it'll have to be by Amtrak, and that's just going to end up even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc20willsave Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 It's called a cooler. You can probably throw in some cold Mello Yello while you're on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venneh Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Yes, but then the train gremlins will steal it, and then there's twenty hours worth of work gone for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You Know Who Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 First off, don't be an arrogant dick, I don't call you Honore. Second off, unless you're living in 60s fantasyland, then yes, the fear and loathing would exist, especially if you found out there were people who could get in your brain and bend metal. All of these things were major factors when the series was created, and in the time period as well, so yeah, there is an issue with them pretending it doesn't exist. It's not enough to condemn the movie, but acting like it doesn't exist is a pretty strong issue. I never said anything about there not being fear and loathing in the 60s and did not mean to imply that. I was trying to justify why there was no anti-mutant rallies or almost no anti-mutant comments made in the movie. That the movie does not show the 60s as a time of prevalent fear and loathing is something of a missed opportunity and does go against what the X-Men are about today. And I have no qualms for being less than nice to you specifically, for you called me a "dipshit" ages ago on this site. That was low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc20willsave Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 And I have no qualms for being less than nice to you specifically, for you called me a "dipshit" ages ago on this site. That was low. You might want to take a look at the rules before you go any further with this. Just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 You guys do realize that you're arguing about a movie. On the internet. No one's mother was defiled, so drop the personal shit. Christ, when I'm being the responsible one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missy Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Don't make me lock this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothian Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 I've rewatched the original X-trilogy to help me judge this film, and I've come to the realisation that 'The Last Stand' is actually pretty decent if you can overlook who dies, the unneccessary mutants involved and how short it was. It doesn't hold a candle to either of its predecessors and I'd probably rate First Class above it, but it's nowhere near the abysmal failure that it's reputed to be. For one thing, it's a damn sight better than "Wolverine" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Thank you Ian, for seconding my support for Last Stand. It's flawed but hardly the abysmal film it's made out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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