Superman and the JSA


KnightWing

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I really don't see Superman's status as THE guy really being that dependent on whether he was first.

I mean, look at Marvel. Does Namor really mean jack all in the Marvel Universe? Sure, they try to squeeze him into every single one of their big events but it never leads to anything. Clearly, being the first didn't do him any favors. And the point can be argued that Marvel didn't really have much in terms of a heroic symbol until Captain America (and is completely without one now), but DC didn't have that until Superman.

Michael Jordan wasn't the first guy to play basketball, but he's still the player that defines the game. And I honestly love the fact that there were heroes before Superman that even he can look up to.

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I mean, look at Marvel. Does Namor really mean jack all in the Marvel Universe? Sure, they try to squeeze him into every single one of their big events but it never leads to anything. Clearly, being the first didn't do him any favors. And the point can be argued that Marvel didn't really have much in terms of a heroic symbol until Captain America (and is completely without one now), but DC didn't have that until Superman.

But that's because the Marvel universe doesn't revolve around the birth of a single character like DC does. DC's universe is more mythic; Marvel's is more realistic.

I think that Superman should be the unequivocal first superhero. He is defined by the fact that he is the template upon which all other superheroes are based (street-level ones like Batman notwithstanding). Alan Scott, as a character, is based on Superman. Switching it around by saying that Superman was inspired by Alan Scott is just weird.

Superman's status as the inspiration for all other heroes is a major part of his character, and I think that it's practically a travesty that the mainstream DCU doesn't reflect that.

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Superman is still a source of inspiration. The heroes of the DCU look at him as the greatest, because he's proven it. Being the greatest is much more important than being the first. I mean, nothing against Alan Scott (Because I love the character.), but the man means fuck-all to the DCU. He's not even a member of the Green Lantern Corps, he just serves as a muse to Batman and Superman.

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Superman is still a source of inspiration. The heroes of the DCU look at him as the greatest, because he's proven it. Being the greatest is much more important than being the first. I mean, nothing against Alan Scott (Because I love the character.), but the man means fuck-all to the DCU. He's not even a member of the Green Lantern Corps, he just serves as a muse to Batman and Superman.

But the point is that the literal idea of a superhero should stem from Superman. The very concept itself shouldn't exist in the DC Universe before he does.

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But, where do you draw the line? I mean, certain heroes have their roots firmly in historical events.

Edit: And frankly, the idea that an alien is the first one to be able to stand up and fight for the world, merely because he can completely justifies Luthor's xenophobia of him. Superman may be the greatest superhero, but he's still an alien. The fact that the first super heroes were men and women who decided to fight for their world exemplifies the willpower of mankind. If the idea had to be handed to us by a Kryptonian, it sort of sullies it.

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And frankly, the idea that an alien is the first one to be able to stand up and fight for the world, merely because he can completely justifies Luthor's xenophobia of him. Superman may be the greatest superhero, but he's still an alien. The fact that the first super heroes were men and women who decided to fight for their world exemplifies the willpower of mankind. If the idea had to be handed to us by a Kryptonian, it sort of sullies it.

There is a point to that, but Superman is only who he is because of his character. Without the human influence of the Kents, he wouldn't have been the same character. Heck, his powers aren't even why he's an inspiration; his moral fortitude and resilience are why others look up to him.

Ultimately, Clark is human. He has physical powers beyond that of mortals, but he makes choices just like any other citizen of Earth.

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But the idea of a costumed hero would be a bastardised misinterpretation of traditional Kryptonian dress. That would just be messed up.

Whatever way you slice it the original Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Nabu and Mighty Adam are the real origin of heroes in DC. Supes can't beat ancient Egypt. Plus there is such a rich tradition of heroes during WWII, I don't see how you could shoehorn Supes into that without making him about 90 now, which makes Clark Kent useless as an alter-ego thus ruining a far more important part of Superman's legacy. I mean, either the entire DCU is shifted to exist about ten years after WWII or it isn't which kills off all Superman's traditional supporting cast since they would all be massively old right now.

I'm not sacrificing the character history of half the DCU just to shoehorn in the least important part of Superman's legacy, a part that isn't even gone since Earth-2 Superman stil had it and he was acknowledged as the first Superman anyway.

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But the idea of a costumed hero would be a bastardised misinterpretation of traditional Kryptonian dress. That would just be messed up.

That's only one version of it; most versions of the Kryptonians didn't wear anything like Superman's outfit. The symbol was really all he adapted from Kryptonian dress.

I'm not sacrificing the character history of half the DCU just to shoehorn in the least important part of Superman's legacy, a part that isn't even gone since Earth-2 Superman stil had it and he was acknowledged as the first Superman anyway.

But see, that's the problem. DC's history is convoluted as hell. I mean, you have to jump through three different hoops and five alternate universes just to make some of the simplest things make sense.

I'm not saying that the DCU should be wiped out; I'm saying that Superman not being the original superhero is a huge hole in the overall universe.

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The nail showed us that the DCU can survive without superman, Bruce would still be Batman and the rest, the world would just be a lot darker, but it would still be the DCU with Batman/Wonder woman and the rest.

Superman is the man that defined being a superhero, and whether or not anyone came before him, is not important, he is the definition of what a hero can be, and making him the torch bearer when he had people to see as heros, makes him more human.

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The nail showed us that the DCU can survive without superman, Bruce would still be Batman and the rest, the world would just be a lot darker, but it would still be the DCU with Batman/Wonder woman and the rest.

Right, but The Nail was still set in a universe where Alan Scott and the JSA were the progenitors of costumed heroism.

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The importance of Superman as the icon for a generation of heroes and those that follow is that he is the horse that carries the heroic values of the previous generation around with him.

It was an easier time in the days of WW2 to be a superhero because you were American and the Nazis were bad. They did wwhat they had to do and had traditional values about that.

The great thing about Superman is that he is the tie to that era. The one thing in a dark world that tells people its okay to be hopeful and optimistic. He is a boy scout but only because he's following the values instilled in him by his parents (also of that generation) and the heroic role models he had in Alan, Jay and the others.

He can't be an example of a bygone era if that era never existed.

We see this exemplified in great story after great story, The Nail was an example and Kingdom Come was as well. Without these things he loses even more humanity and becomes a god masquerading as a man.

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I don't know how I can add anything to this, as we now have a cyclical argument going on, But I want to say that I like Superman not being the first.

I think the point being missed is that Superman wasn't inspired to be a hero by the GA guys. He was a hero on his own. That they inspired everyone but the alien is cool to me. Who are the main aliens in the DCU? Superman and the Martian Manhunter. They weren't inspired by the Golden Age heroes. They were inspired by a desire to help and a desire to be a more effective - more far-reaching - detective, respectively.

I love when I see the old JSA guys give Superman encouragement or advice. I like there being someone for him to go to, other than Batman, when he needs help. In fact, I geek out a bit when Jay or Alan call him "Clark."

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Personally, I think we've got a good compromise right now. We have the golden age heros and their legacy but Superman is still vitally important because he inspired the rebirth of the superhero movement after it was fairly brutally put down by Dr. Trapp.

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Personally, I think we've got a good compromise right now. We have the golden age heros and their legacy but Superman is still vitally important because he inspired the rebirth of the superhero movement after it was fairly brutally put down by Dr. Trapp.

But Superman is a Golden Age superhero.

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If you want to be really picky, Mandrake the Magician appeared in 1934, making him a superhero that's four years older than Superman. And frankly, The Spider (1933), The Shadow (1930 on the radio/1931 in Print) , The Green Hornet (1936), Doc Savage (1933), and most notably The Phantom (1936) all came before Superman (1938) in publishing, so he's not really the first superhero at all, he's just the first superhero that DC bothered to buy/create.

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And if Superman being created during the Golden Age means that he has begin in that era in DCU continuity, then Lex Luthor, Lois Lane, Perry White, Jimmy Olsen, Prankster, Toyman, Batman, Robin, Alfred, Commissioner Gordon, The Joker, Penguin, Two Face, Catwoman, The Riddler, and Scarecrow have to begin their careers during that era as well.

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If you want to be really picky, Mandrake the Magician appeared in 1934, making him a superhero that's four years older than Superman. And frankly, The Spider (1933), The Shadow (1930 on the radio/1931 in Print) , The Green Hornet (1936), Doc Savage (1933), and most notably The Phantom (1936) all came before Superman (1938) in publishing, so he's not really the first superhero at all, he's just the first superhero that DC bothered to buy/create.

Those are heroes, not superheroes. Superman is the one that started the super-powered hero trend, and he's the one that inspired all the other superheroes that would follow. Heck, the term "superhero" as it's used today is a takeoff of Superman's name.

I'm not suggesting that Superman should be literally from the 1930s in DCU history; I'm saying that he should be the one who inspired all the other DC heroes. The JSA is great, but they don't deserve to redefine history from their point of view. I love the JSA and their history, but their existence before Superman invalidates much of his reason for existence, and his status as an icon. It's like if George Washington hadn't been the first U.S. president. Sure, he probably would have still been a great war general and president if he had come later, but much of his importance to history comes from the fact that he set the precedent for his followers.

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How is the Phantom any less of a superhero than Captain America or Black Panther? He has a spandex costume, domino mask and is in peak human physical condition.

phantom_comic_skull.jpg

The Phantom is a crimefighter, like Batman in his early years. He's not a "super" hero because he doesn't have a lot of the main characteristics that would separate him from a normal vigilante.

That's the point: Superman is the one who inspired the "superhero" trend, with individuals (super-powered or not) who would use their abilities in fantastic ways to help all of mankind. Superman also helped to establish the general morality of later comic heroes as well, with many other characters following in his example.

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I'm not suggesting that Superman should be literally from the 1930s in DCU history; I'm saying that he should be the one who inspired all the other DC heroes. The JSA is great, but they don't deserve to redefine history from their point of view. I love the JSA and their history, but their existence before Superman invalidates much of his reason for existence, and his status as an icon. It's like if George Washington hadn't been the first U.S. president. Sure, he probably would have still been a great war general and president if he had come later, but much of his importance to history comes from the fact that he set the precedent for his followers.

And we're back to square one.

He inspired super-heroes ten centuries after he first began fighting for truth, justice, and the American way, most likely many more in the centuries before the Legion of Super-Heroes. His return is celebrated throughout the galaxy in the 853rd century. And this is without being the first super-hero. It's been proven that whether he's the first or not doesn't matter because Superman will always be Superman no matter when he first takes to the skies.

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[Long, weighted response about why it doesn't matter that heroes existed before Supes.]

"But he should be first!"

[stronger, even more detailed rewording of the first response.]

"Yeah, but still. First!"

And so the cycle goes.

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