Molly Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 And the most popular piece of art of all time about witch hunts (no need for the spoiler tags) depicts the truth. And the author was fucking Marylin Monroe. Not relevant, but important nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 And the most popular piece of art of all time about witch hunts (no need for the spoiler tags) depicts the truth. And the author was fucking Marylin Monroe. Not relevant, but important nonetheless. Funnily enough, that's what I use to sell it to the teenage girls I teach. Except I used the word "married" to save my job. Tried it on a whim and they go for it. "Marilyn loved the guy so he must be good" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 All we can see in that cover is Batman, wearing 16th-century garb, surrounded by evil cackling witches. So... is it wrong for Batman to be fighting witches in the 16th century? I mean, what, is he supposed to say "Well, normally I would put a stop to this evil, but I can't because I would only be supporting a negative stereotype"? I mean, honestly, is there anything at all wrong with that cover? Are we worried that people today are actually going to be inspired by that cover to start witch hunts? The KKK and Nazis I can understand because of their recency and social relevance, but witch hunts? Ehhh... If we live in a world where cinema can examine the psychology of modern-day suicide bombers, I don't see why Batman can't fight actual witches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 So... is it wrong for Batman to be fighting witches in the 16th century? I mean, what, is he supposed to say "Well, normally I would put a stop to this evil, but I can't because I would only be supporting a negative stereotype"? Ok, I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. Witch hunts are basically the romanticisation of the reason for the persecuting women who didn't fit traditional community values. Its exactly the same as if in 100 years Batman was thrown back in time and dressed in the traditional clothes of a man who organised the community lynching of homosexuals for deviant behaviour. Its the sort of moral panic that led mobs to attack completely innocent people because they thought they were paedophiles. And this isn't limited to the 16th century, since communities were still attempting to push prosecutions based on the idea in 1990 in the US. In 1944 a woman was imprisoned in the UK because of her supposed occult power. Witch hunts are still common in Africa, and still result in mobs killing people. Cellphone video exists of women being persecuted as witches in India in 2008. The mentality still exists, and the creation of a fantasy storyline to in any way justify this kid of mob-led persecution of the weak is disgusting. I'm not saying any reader will say "Its OK to do it, Batman did it" but then I wouldn't expect DC to put out a book about how awesome the SS officers that hunted down jews were. I wouldn't put Batman in Cromwell's army to show how justified he was in nailing irish babies to church doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 I see your point, but I still think the concept is fine. People didn't hunt witches specifically because they were women who acted out of line; they hunted them because they were actually paranoid about witchcraft. There was some twisting going on, but the actual issue was witchcraft, not hatred towards women. It's not the same as the KKK's hatred for African-Americans, or the Nazis' hatred towards the Jews. And hey, think about this: if actual witches did exist at the time, then the entire issue would be different, as it apparently is with this Batman story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 I see your point, but I still think the concept is fine. People didn't hunt witches specifically because they were women who acted out of line; they hunted them because they were actually paranoid about witchcraft. There was some twisting going on, but the actual issue was witchcraft, not hatred towards women. And the Daily Mirror readers really thought they were after a paedophile. That doesn't absolve them of blame and it certainly doesn't absolve the instigator, be it tabloid newspaper or jealous neighbour after their stuff (yes, more often than not that was the case and ever has been). It certainly doesn't absolve the witchhunter for making a profession out of being a travelling mob-leader and murderer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 And the Daily Mirror readers really thought they were after a paedophile. That doesn't absolve them of blame and it certainly doesn't absolve the instigator, be it tabloid newspaper or jealous neighbour after their stuff (yes, more often than not that was the case and ever has been). It certainly doesn't absolve the witchhunter for making a profession out of being a travelling mob-leader and murderer. But what if Batman is actually after real witches? Does that not change the issue entirely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 And the Daily Mirror readers really thought they were after a paedophile. That doesn't absolve them of blame and it certainly doesn't absolve the instigator, be it tabloid newspaper or jealous neighbour after their stuff (yes, more often than not that was the case and ever has been). It certainly doesn't absolve the witchhunter for making a profession out of being a travelling mob-leader and murderer. But what if Batman is actually after real witches? Does that not change the issue entirely? Last response on this I swear. We'll get back on topic after this. Batman stands as a pure symbol of justice. That's why he was created, to play out moral battles in a fictional fashion for children and later adults to enjoy. The fiction of witchcraft and the notion of fighting it was created purely to persecute and murder people and justify it. Witchhunters in most modern intelligent media are rightly shown as amoral bastards who drummed up moral panic for their own reasons and gave communities carte blanche to rid themselves of undesirables. The fiction of "real" witches is a romanticisation, one which I am willing to accept in a great many scenarios if sufficiently divorced from its propagandist and bloody origins, but when its Witchhunters vs Witches its too close. To depict Batman, a symbol of Justice, as a witchhunter, its glossing over and once again romanticising the brutal murder and persecution of undesirables under a cloak of ignorance and religious fervour. If I went from town to town convincing communities to murder people, I would not expect some great fictional hero of 100 years from now to start dressing as me. These people were the travelling Charles Manson's of their day, and in many countries still are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 See, I get what you're saying, but I don't believe that the concept of witchcraft was actually created with such devious purposes in mind. I've had long conversations about this with a psychology professor and two history professors; they all said that witchcraft wasn't just an excuse to get away with intolerance and murder, but an actual belief (that just about everyone held back then) that was eventually used for nefarious purposes. But that's getting very assumption-based, one way or the other, so we should probably just leave it at that. Good debate, sir. *handshake* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuaveStar Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Great. But pirates are really just glorified criminals and murderers and the cowboy merely reflects the lawlessness and corruption of Civil War-era western USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Those I have no issue with. Aside from the fact that they're inherently goofy. Its crazy how Batman's mask by itself is familiar enough that its practically the only bat-adornment on Batty Jones/Bat-beard/Captain Bat Sparrow/Captain Batwash (and Robin the cabin boy) or whatever they are calling him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 And yet, the most famous of those three examples historically are mass murderers at best. I don't have a problem with any of them, frankly. Because I don't see Morrison make Batman drown a fifteen year old who was caught masturbating. If that happens then I'll have a problem with it. My favorite part of both of those is the bat pirate flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Pirates and Cowboys are so warped by modern perceptions and storytelling that it doesn't matter. Witch-hunters aren't nearly as acceptable to portray as good guys in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuaveStar Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 My favorite part of both of those is the bat pirate flag. Ha. Didn't notice that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venneh Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 ...Is it bad that I thought that Pirate!Bat's beard looked like tentacles? Also, I would kill for Jonah Hex to show up for Cowboy!Bats. ...Actually, you know what I wish would happen here but probably won't? Have all of his major enemies show up in each era, reimagined. Like, Pirate!Joker, Cowboy!Hush, Witch!Poison Ivy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Dread Pirate Two-Beard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Cowbat is packin' heat, I noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuaveStar Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Jonah Hex is meant to show up in the cowboy story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Long Bat Silverage has the utility bandoleer, which quite frankly had better be bright yellow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Pirates and Cowboys are so warped by modern perceptions and storytelling that it doesn't matter. Witch-hunters aren't nearly as acceptable to portray as good guys in my book. Were your parents killed by a Witch Hunter or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Every time I think I'm out they pull me back in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koete Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Cowbat is packin' heat, I noticed. I'm hoping that's just for show, and when he has a showdown at dawn, he whips out a batarang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Cowbat is packin' heat, I noticed. I'm hoping that's just for show, and when he has a showdown at dawn, he whips out a batarang. Or maybe there's something other than bullets in the gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.