James D. Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 And suddenly, I just remembered that Kirsten Dunst's MJ can be added to the list of protagonists? on the Tirades Wiki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothian Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I think she was more than a little useless in the first two movies as well. Hell, in the second movie she was practically an antagonist. Except she wasn't - the only reason she was pissy with Peter was because he wasn't there for her when he said he would be. It's a natural reaction. Again, it doesn't come across as sympathetic, but the character doesn't really do anything wrong in that film or the preceding one. Spidey III? I'll give you that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Hey, Magneto has good reasons for what he does, too. Doesn't make him a good guy. Regardless of her reasoning, MJ in Spider-Man 2 existed to do nothing more than either (A) make Peter's life more depressing or (B) inadvertently convince him that he shouldn't be helping people. She never gives him an encouraging word or supports him like Aunt May does until the very end; she basically repeatedly slaps him in the face and tells him to go fuck himself because she sure won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venneh Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 So, she's the bad guy because she's fed up with Peter waffling all over rhe place on what she wants, and is trying to move on with her life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 She's an antagonist. I didn't say bad guy. (well, I did with Magneto, but that's not a perfect analogy) Lemme put it this way: if you're going to have a love interest, you need to make the audience want her/him to be with the protagonist. But with MJ, it's like they were trying to do the opposite. I mostly wanted MJ dead or at least gone, not for her to end up with Peter in the end. It's not like you can fault her, exactly, but she wasn't exactly an enjoyable character to watch. Compare that to Aunt May, who had that one scene where she found out that Peter was indirectly responsible for Ben's death, but came around after a while on her own (without having to find out Peter was a superhero) and decided to forgive Peter anyway. Until the final scenes of SM2, MJ was written to be an obstacle for Peter, not a true romantic interest. She represented how selflessly doing the right thing apparently only hurts you, despite your best efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothian Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Right..... Hey, Magneto has good reasons for what he does, too. Doesn't make him a good guy. Magneto is completely at ease with waging war, ie/ death, against an entire race of people. He *can* be seen as sympathetic as a Holocaust survivor, but you never condone his actions as they're fundamentally wrong. MJ tells Peter to stop chasing her after he's hurt her too many times. Bit of a difference, even if the sympathy's more in Peter's court due to his secret identity conflict. Regardless of her reasoning, MJ in Spider-Man 2 existed to do nothing more than either (A) make Peter's life more depressing She's one part of a larger tapestry, examining the downsides of being a superhero, which is the entire point of Spider-man II. The consequences of her being associated with him is what puts her in life threatening situations. or (B) inadvertently convince him that he shouldn't be helping people. She never gives him an encouraging word or supports him like Aunt May does until the very end; she basically repeatedly slaps him in the face and tells him to go fuck himself because she sure won't. 1) No, because even if letting her down makes him feel bad, he ultimately stays the course. Once MJ knows the truth, she's fully supportive of him (in SM2, at least). 2) She has no reason to support a man who continually lies to her and won't let her in to his dilemma. 3) She isn't a blood relative like Aunt May. 4) She doesn't physically or verbally assault Peter at all. Even after her engagement has been announced, she asks Peter to kiss her to try and ascertain his feelings for her. She's an antagonist. I didn't say bad guy. (well, I did with Magneto, but that's not a perfect analogy) She's not even that. The definition of "anatagonist" is the adversary of the hero/protagonist. At most, MJ is a side consideration as Peter has to go up against Dock Ock (villain), Harry Osbourne (actual antagonist) & J. Jonah Jameson (media/PR antagonist). She has no direct impact on Spider-Man's crimefighting, merely a burden on Peter's desire not be Spider-Man. Lemme put it this way: if you're going to have a love interest, you need to make the audience want her/him to be with the protagonist. But with MJ, it's like they were trying to do the opposite. I mostly wanted MJ dead or at least gone, not for her to end up with Peter in the end. It's not like you can fault her, exactly, but she wasn't exactly an enjoyable character to watch. Compare that to Aunt May, who had that one scene where she found out that Peter was indirectly responsible for Ben's death, but came around after a while on her own (without having to find out Peter was a superhero) and decided to forgive Peter anyway. You've clearly missed a chunk of subtext (which admittedly sounds like a pretentious thing to say). MJ still clearly carries a torch for Peter since the end of SM1, but he continually lets her down. Getting fed up with him, she turns to young Jameson and rashly agrees to an engagement (bear in mind her high school BF/dating Harry, she's not exactly got a great track record of who she latches onto). It isn't her fault that Peter lets her down, and thus she has a right to be pissed with him. When she finally sees who he really is, all is forgiven and her love for Peter is enough for her to get cold feet at the altar and plump for a destitute photographer over a minted, connected astronaut. As such, I don't see the problem. And again, her problems with Peter are a lot different from that of Aunt May's problems with Peter - with May always likely to forgive Peter more readily as he's her surrogate son Until the final scenes of SM2, MJ was written to be an obstacle for Peter, not a true romantic interest. She represented how selflessly doing the right thing apparently only hurts you, despite your best efforts. But that doesn't make her an antagonist. I could point to a number of CBMs where the protagonist hiding his identity from his love interest hinders their relationship. I'll agree that the tone of SMII puts the sympathy firmly in Peter Parker's court, but at the same time, you can completely understand MJ's reactions if you just stop and think about it for 2 seconds. I happen to believe that Kirsten Dunst was miscast and was out-acted by Maguire in their more dramatic scenes throughout the trilogy, and that my defence of the character is limited to the first 2 films only. Arguably the same thing could be argued for SMIII, but the character makes so many bad decisions in that film that I wouldn't be putting my heart into it if I wanted to try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Holy friggin' crap, dude. That's a lot of text. Suffice it to say that I think we actually have similar (just slightly varying) views. I'm not actually sure we're arguing the same thing. I'll agree that the tone of SMII puts the sympathy firmly in Peter Parker's court, but at the same time, you can completely understand MJ's reactions if you just stop and think about it for 2 seconds. I happen to believe that Kirsten Dunst was miscast and was out-acted by Maguire in their more dramatic scenes throughout the trilogy, and that my defence of the character is limited to the first 2 films only. Arguably the same thing could be argued for SMIII, but the character makes so many bad decisions in that film that I wouldn't be putting my heart into it if I wanted to try it. Like I said, you can't actually blame MJ for what she does. What I blame is the movie for putting her in a position where she became unlikable. They could have done it differently. For instance, maybe if MJ had been been totally cool with Peter (maybe despite him being constantly late? because she's an amazingly loving person?), but Peter's life as Spider-Man unwittingly puts MJ in the hospital (that scene in the restaurant where Doc Ock attacks would have worked). Then Peter can have his doubts about being Spider-Man, but we still like MJ and want her to be with him. Now, as to why I label her an antagonist: Antagonist 1. A person who actively opposes or is hostile to someone or something; an adversary If we say that Peter Parker's two goals are (1) being Spider-Man / saving the day and (2) being happy, then MJ hinders both of those for the first 90% of the movie. Her constant rejections of Peter, while perfectly logical, do technically stand in the way of his happiness, and the lowest of the lows Peter feels are related to her. Once again, not wrong from her point of view, but from the audience's emotional perspective and the general overall objective narrative, she opposes his happiness, albeit inadvertently. Furthermore, she is a huge factor in Peter's doubts about being Spider-Man, to the point where his physical powers stop working. She quite literally is the emotional reason why our hero cannot succeed. Now, this logically is more due to Peter being an emotionally-driven idiot than MJ being a bitch, but in most ways, Peter is doing everything right, essentially. He's trying to protect her and love her as best he can without getting so close as to put her in danger, yet her responses routinely do nothing but bring him down, both physically and psychologically. From her perspective, she's perfectly in the right. From Peter's perspective (which is therefore the story's perspective), she's an antagonist. Until the ending, that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFetch Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 MJ is written as an unlikable character, which goes against the whole reason she's there in the first place. 1. She is attracted to successful and rich guys. Flash in high school, the biggest baddest jock around with a sports car. Harry afterwards, the son of a billionaire. 2. She lived next door to Peter all their life, but wouldn't give him the time of day until after his transformation. 3.She went out with Peter's best friend, and then sort of cheated on Peter with him later. 4. She lied to Peter about being a successful actress, and then made Peter promise to keep it from Harry because she didn't want anyone to know she's not successful. 5. She got jealous when Gwen kissed him for a publicity stunt because that was her moment. It's like they went out of their way to get the audience to hate her. I don't care if Peter didn't make it to her play, she acted like a spoiled brat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Honestly I always thought Raimi bent over backwards so far to make the villains sympathetic that Spiderman and MJ came off as completely terrible human beings. I know people love Spiderman 2, but all I got out of it was a mopey guy and his pseudo girlfriend who was sorta cuckolding an astronaut pick on a recent widower who just had his life's dream go up in smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 I want to see more movie summaries by Delete. Die Hard is the story of a brutal cop attempting to suppress the spirit of entrepreneurship in the immigrant population. Jaws is about a creature being victimised for it's dietary issues. The Rocky films are about a man with an inbuild brain deformity using it to unfair advantage to ruin the careers of a series of talented and promising boxers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFetch Posted June 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Honestly I always thought Raimi bent over backwards so far to make the villains sympathetic that Spiderman and MJ came off as completely terrible human beings. Completely agree with the first part. Green Goblin only became a bad guy because the serum made him crazy and his company was being taken away from him. Doc Ock went crazy after he lost his wife and life's work. Sandman was only stealing to help his sick daughter. Eddie Brock was fired and lost everything, and the scene of him at the church made him sympathetic. Harry thought Peter murdered his father, and after finding out the truth became good. Nobody is evil because they are bad people, only because circumstances made them that way. That's why someone like Carnage would have been so refreshing. I don't think Peter came off as a bad person at all except for the third movie. He's an everyman, which is what he's supposed to be. MJ came off so bad that when he hit her everyone cheered in the theater, and when she kissed Harry people were yelling bitch. I know Kirsten Dunst gets a lot of the heat for it, but she was just doing what was written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 I want to see more movie summaries by Delete. Die Hard is the story of a brutal cop attempting to suppress the spirit of entrepreneurship in the immigrant population. Jaws is about a creature being victimised for it's dietary issues. The Rocky films are about a man with an inbuild brain deformity using it to unfair advantage to ruin the careers of a series of talented and promising boxers. Titanic is the story of a woman who lived a lie by raising a family when she really spent all her time pining over a bum she blew on a cruise once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc20willsave Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Personally, I always felt the old woman in Titanic was a liar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 I reckon she pushed Jack off the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuaveStar Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 I reckon she pushed Jack off the door. She didn't push him. She just didn't show much concern when he sort of slipped off the side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You Know Who Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 If Kate Winslet's character is anywhere near as unsympathetic as MJ, then I'm glad I haven't seen Titanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc20willsave Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 The character is pretty much, "I'm rich and it sucks because I don't want to marry cartoonishly evil Billy Zane!" Then she lets her entire family think she died on the ship while she leads a life with a new husband and secretly pines for some dead guy she knew for like three days. This isn't even getting into the 20 million dollar necklace she just throws overboard when she has a least one granddaughter who's been taking care of her for multiple years. Really, this is the better ending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFetch Posted June 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 I just lost all the fucks I gave about this. Seeing an intelligent Lizard speaking with a British accent just killed it for me. If at some point he holds a skull up and quotes Shakespeare I'm going to slit my writs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koete Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 And I'm even more excited for it. So glad they're going the intelligent route with The Lizard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Yeah, just having the Lizard be a rampaging monster isn't quite as good of a threat, I think. I mean, sure the speech is a little jarring at first, but I imagine it'll work really well in-context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 First reviews are in and they're positive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Great. I was hoping Webb would do a good job, I like his stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You Know Who Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 True Story/Random Fact: One of my best friends from college is named Marc Webb and been friended on facebook by people thinking he was the director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donomark Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 So I saw this last night/this morning and thought this was awesome. Anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davedevil Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 So I saw this last night/this morning and thought this was awesome. Anyone else? Can't wait to hear you discuss it on the CS. Saw it last Friday and Saturday. Absolutely loved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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