Episode 74


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Vandal Savage makes his return and threatens the world with a railgun ("Maid of Honor"). Meanwhile, Despero attempts to take control of the galaxy by using the Flame of Py'tar ("Hearts and Minds"). Then the Justice League meets their alternate reality counterparts, the Justice Lords ("A Better World"). [ 1:39:11 || 45.4 MB ]

The above is from: http://www.worldsfinestpodcast.com/episodes/wfp_074.mp3

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Vandal Savage makes his return and threatens the world with a railgun ("Maid of Honor"). Meanwhile, Despero attempts to take control of the galaxy by using the Flame of Py'tar ("Hearts and Minds"). Then the Justice League meets their alternate reality counterparts, the Justice Lords ("A Better World"). [ 1:39:11 || 45.4 MB ]

The above is from: http://www.worldsfinestpodcast.com/episodes/wfp_074.mp3

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

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Guest DCAUFan1051

Within a week, but I can't name a date yet. Other podcasting commitments have to come first.

mike: when's the deadline for voicemails for 75?

also I like Hearts & Minds only 4 keith david's voice acting.

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Guest DCAUFan1051

In the commentary Bruce Timm says on A Better World that all the Supes Bots lines are from stuff Superman said in Season 1 of JL. Also the sound effect of Flash throwing rocks at Justice Lords Supes was a sped up machine gun.

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Calling them heroic, as I did, was a bit off. I admit that. But they went from "let's help these guys make their world a better place" to "kill 'em all" in a heartbeat. That's what I was driving at.

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Okay, here are my thoughts:

As far as the opening scene goes, it doesn't matter to me that it wasn't suspenseful. The conversation between Luthor and Superman, the shot of Superman with his eyes glowing, and his reaction to having just fried Luthor, that whole scene is great to me, regardless of if it's happening on "our" Earth or not.

As for Doomsday, when he lands your immediate thought is "Oh SHIT!" because this is the guy who killed Superman. You're thinking what's going to happen next, they can't kill Superman can they? And then instead of a Superman dying, a Superman straight up lobotomizes Doomsday. That was brilliant IMO.

As far as the Justice Lords' turn from part 1 to part 2, I can buy it. For the past couple of years, they've had their Earth pretty much under their control. True, their intentions are good, but it's still become about controlling and "protecting" the people. Then they become aware of the Justice League, and while at first they try to help them prevent what's happened to them from happening to their counterparts, they quickly lose control of the situation as the League actually poses a challenge to them. Losing control wouldn't exactly sit right with them considering the state of mind they're in. Also, I think that after a couple years of their program, they've slowly been corrupted more and more from wanting to protect, to wanting to maintain the power they now have now that they have a taste. I can see them being so far gone that they might even resort to murder, as they're clearly not the heroes they used to be or want to think they still are.

Finally, I'd still like to know why the sudden change of heart when it comes to bringing the future into the analysis of the episode, because you and James most certainly did take it into account when reviewing Ghost in The Machine. It's a bit unfair to allow it in one episode, but wave it off in another, especially when this is much more of a laying seeds than Ghost in The Machine was.

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As far as the opening scene goes, it doesn't matter to me that it wasn't suspenseful. The conversation between Luthor and Superman, the shot of Superman with his eyes glowing, and his reaction to having just fried Luthor, that whole scene is great to me, regardless of if it's happening on "our" Earth or not.

It is a good scene, but it didn't capture the suspense they were going for. And that's why it doesn't work for me. I mean, right from the start we know this isn't our world, so there's no consequences behind it.

As for Doomsday, when he lands your immediate thought is "Oh SHIT!" because this is the guy who killed Superman. You're thinking what's going to happen next, they can't kill Superman can they? And then instead of a Superman dying, a Superman straight up lobotomizes Doomsday. That was brilliant IMO.

Me, when I saw him, my thought was, "Why's Doomsday in this?" And then I realized it was just to job him out. The monster that killed Superman was taken out in the blink of an eye. On top of that, having an alternate reality Superman (with the same powers, mind you) destroy Doomsday makes (comic book and Justice League) Superman look weak in comparison.

As far as the Justice Lords' turn from part 1 to part 2, I can buy it. For the past couple of years, they've had their Earth pretty much under their control. True, their intentions are good, but it's still become about controlling and "protecting" the people. Then they become aware of the Justice League, and while at first they try to help them prevent what's happened to them from happening to their counterparts, they quickly lose control of the situation as the League actually poses a challenge to them. Losing control wouldn't exactly sit right with them considering the state of mind they're in. Also, I think that after a couple years of their program, they've slowly been corrupted more and more from wanting to protect, to wanting to maintain the power they now have now that they have a taste. I can see them being so far gone that they might even resort to murder, as they're clearly not the heroes they used to be or want to think they still are.

If they want to maintain control of their world, why bother messing around with another one? That only diverts their attention away from problems at home.

I accept that the Lords kill, but it was the way they went from attempting to aid the League to wanting to murder them that bothered me. I didn't feel there was enough of a build up.

Finally, I'd still like to know why the sudden change of heart when it comes to bringing the future into the analysis of the episode, because you and James most certainly did take it into account when reviewing Ghost in The Machine. It's a bit unfair to allow it in one episode, but wave it off in another, especially when this is much more of a laying seeds than Ghost in The Machine was.

It's one thing if they were clearly laying the groundwork for something later on, such as with the Hawkgirl / Green Lantern relationship, but this was a happy accident. Do I give them credit for coming back to this well? Oh yes! But giving it extra points just didn't seem right to me, mostly because what spun out of this later wasn't initially intended. Should we have done that with Ghost in the Machine? Looking back, I don't think so.

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As far as the opening scene goes, it doesn't matter to me that it wasn't suspenseful. The conversation between Luthor and Superman, the shot of Superman with his eyes glowing, and his reaction to having just fried Luthor, that whole scene is great to me, regardless of if it's happening on "our" Earth or not.

It is a good scene, but it didn't capture the suspense they were going for. And that's why it doesn't work for me. I mean, right from the start we know this isn't our world, so there's no consequences behind it.

As for Doomsday, when he lands your immediate thought is "Oh SHIT!" because this is the guy who killed Superman. You're thinking what's going to happen next, they can't kill Superman can they? And then instead of a Superman dying, a Superman straight up lobotomizes Doomsday. That was brilliant IMO.

Me, when I saw him, my thought was, "Why's Doomsday in this?" And then I realized it was just to job him out. The monster that killed Superman was taken out in the blink of an eye. On top of that, having an alternate reality Superman (with the same powers, mind you) destroy Doomsday makes (comic book and Justice League) Superman look weak in comparison.

As far as the Justice Lords' turn from part 1 to part 2, I can buy it. For the past couple of years, they've had their Earth pretty much under their control. True, their intentions are good, but it's still become about controlling and "protecting" the people. Then they become aware of the Justice League, and while at first they try to help them prevent what's happened to them from happening to their counterparts, they quickly lose control of the situation as the League actually poses a challenge to them. Losing control wouldn't exactly sit right with them considering the state of mind they're in. Also, I think that after a couple years of their program, they've slowly been corrupted more and more from wanting to protect, to wanting to maintain the power they now have now that they have a taste. I can see them being so far gone that they might even resort to murder, as they're clearly not the heroes they used to be or want to think they still are.

If they want to maintain control of their world, why bother messing around with another one? That only diverts their attention away from problems at home.

I accept that the Lords kill, but it was the way they went from attempting to aid the League to wanting to murder them that bothered me. I didn't feel there was enough of a build up.

Finally, I'd still like to know why the sudden change of heart when it comes to bringing the future into the analysis of the episode, because you and James most certainly did take it into account when reviewing Ghost in The Machine. It's a bit unfair to allow it in one episode, but wave it off in another, especially when this is much more of a laying seeds than Ghost in The Machine was.

It's one thing if they were clearly laying the groundwork for something later on, such as with the Hawkgirl / Green Lantern relationship, but this was a happy accident. Do I give them credit for coming back to this well? Oh yes! But giving it extra points just didn't seem right to me, mostly because what spun out of this later wasn't initially intended. Should we have done that with Ghost in the Machine? Looking back, I don't think so.

If I recall correctly, you gave "Speed Demons" an extra point because, in retrospect, it expanded the DCAU since it introduced the Flash (and the Weather Wizard; groan...), but the producers had no way of knowing they'd be able to use (a) Flash again; why no extra point for this episode, then, which, whether Timm & Co. knew it or not, set up the Cadmus arc that dominated the first two seasons of JLU? Or did you give it a four plus the one point for seed-planting?

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Dwayne McDuffie on “Maid of Honor”: “My master’s degree is in Physics. I cheated a bit but not much, certainly less than I did with people who can fly. The current medical belief is that a ‘regular’ human can survive unprotected in space for about three minutes. Here’s a link to a popular article on the subject. As far as recovery time goes, I think Flash is tougher than a regular human, we know he has enhanced healing.

“[…] Yikes, did I say three minutes? That should have been ninety seconds. Still, that’s twice as long as I had Flash out there, and he certainly would not burst like people do in bad science fiction movies. I made one big mistake; Flash shouldn't have been cold, the vacuum of space would have preserved his body temperature. If anything, he should have been sunburned from the unfiltered UV radiation. On the Internet, you can find plenty of links to more technical discussions of surviving in a vacuum. Here’s a fairly jargon-free one from NASA that includes information about a real guy actually surviving in a near-vacuum for fifteen seconds.

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It is a good scene, but it didn't capture the suspense they were going for. And that's why it doesn't work for me. I mean, right from the start we know this isn't our world, so there's no consequences behind it.

So? Aren't you at least invested and engaged in what's going on? You're right, you know something's fishy, but that shouldn't be dismissed because "Oh this ain't real!" It's obvious that this isn't the normal world, but you shouldn't dismiss it because you could easily tell that. It served as an opening, not a straight-up mystery.

Me, when I saw him, my thought was, "Why's Doomsday in this?" And then I realized it was just to job him out. The monster that killed Superman was taken out in the blink of an eye. On top of that, having an alternate reality Superman (with the same powers, mind you) destroy Doomsday makes (comic book and Justice League) Superman look weak in comparison.

Okay, A) Doomsday appeared outta nowhere in the comics as well. B)He wasn't so much as jobbed out as he was a device to show how ruthless J. Lord Superman was, but to each his/her own. C)It was supposed to illustrate how there were lines this Superman was more than willing to cross. Lois and Lex point that out minutes later.

If they want to maintain control of their world, why bother messing around with another one? That only diverts their attention away from problems at home.

I accept that the Lords kill, but it was the way they went from attempting to aid the League to wanting to murder them that bothered me. I didn't feel there was enough of a build up.

In the commentary it's straight-up said that the Justice Lords are facsists. In their own world, they're pretty much fascists. The very name LORDS denotes a fasisct overtone. I personally never got that they were nice guys, but since they saw a world that was younger in ideals than they were from their perspective, they found it their business to go over to their world and inflict their regime. That's the type of people they've become in the two years since Pres. Lex died.

It's one thing if they were clearly laying the groundwork for something later on, such as with the Hawkgirl / Green Lantern relationship, but this was a happy accident. Do I give them credit for coming back to this well? Oh yes! But giving it extra points just didn't seem right to me, mostly because what spun out of this later wasn't initially intended. Should we have done that with Ghost in the Machine? Looking back, I don't think so.

Yeah, you gave episode like a 10 or something.

Looking at this episode's own merits, it seems to me like you're just asking questions without trying to find the answers.

Q: Why did Doomsday just appear?

A: Why did he just appear in the comics?/To show the type of person J.Lord Superman had become.

Q: Why'd the Lords visit the other world?

A: Thats how they roll.

Q:How did Batman have a dimensional transporter in his bat-cave?

A: Technology has clearly developed in the two years since the opening. Look at the new Watchtower.

Q: Why'd the cops show up outside Arkham?

A: Joker called them.

Honestly it bugs me because it comes off as rampant nitpicking. I'm not ragging on your right to your opinion concerning this episode, but they way you got there does not seem fair. It's as though you can enjoy it all you want, but if one little thing comes up it's knocked down several points. And I loved this episode the night it originally aired. JLU has nothing to do with my feelings on this episode, as does most of the episodes I like that tend to be very lowly graded throughout WFP. The idea of a fasisct Justice League encountering and overpowering our Justice League is engaging and intriguing at best, and ambitious at worst and I think they pulled it off perfectly. If something's bugging, it's bugging like, for example, why didn't the League try destorying the artifact after obtaning it in Knight of Shadows. Thats a legitimate complaint. But I'm sorry, the ones here just did not seem worth grading the show so low. It's like when you guys went over "His Silicon Soul" and spent 5 minutes asking how the robot Batman had a utility belt before figuring out that the H.A.R.D.A.C. system infiltrated the bat-cave before. It's like A) did that really take you out of the show and B) it wasn't that hard a resolution to get to IMO. The production team on this show aren't idiots.

I dunno, if you like or dislike something then thats your bag. I don't think the range of your opinions was fully justified, but thats my opinion.

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A Better World most definitely had future stories in mind. I mean, the episode ends with Lex practically looking into the camera and saying "I AM NOW STARTING A CHARACTER ARC IN WHICH I WILL PURSUE POLITICS."

And hey, the episode premiered less than a year before JLU, so it's entirely possible that they were laying the groundwork already, even if they didn't know that the show was going to be re-formatted into single-part episodes.

As for why the police in Lords-Gotham would know about alternate versions of the heroes, think about this:

If we assume that the Lords-Universe is the same as the main DCAU before Flash's death (which it seems to be), then we've already had...

  • Bizarro (who looked exactly like Superman for a while)
  • A Superman robot (from "Legacy, Part 1")
  • Wasn't there a Bat-robot at some point?
  • An asylum full of rogues who would (provided that they could miraculously work past being lobotomized) gladly impersonate the heroes
  • Sinestro, who disguised himself as John once
  • Possibly the Green Lantern Corps? I'd imagine that since John is doing exactly what Sinestro did on Korugar (forming a dictatorship), the Guardians wouldn't be happy with him, and would likely send GLs to take him down. Maybe the Earth military and police have orders to subdue any and all heroes aside from the Lords themselves?

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