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Kscriv

The N64 Thread

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Okay, so Dubs said that if the thread was made he'd weigh in on it, so here it is.

Personally, back in the day I was on board with the Sony camp, but realised that there were some things that the N64 had going for it. I recently picked up my first N64 (Pikachu edition) for $65 a couple of weeks ago.

My Pros for the N64:

-4 Controllers Slots (big deal at the time)

-Cartridges=No load times (play some early Saturn/Playstation and tell me you don't want to kill yourself over some of the load times)

-Wrestling Games (World tour/Revenge/WM2000/No Mercy were better than anything ever put out.)

-First and Second Party awesomeness (Mario 64, Mario Kart 64, Goldeneye, Smash Bros., Zelda, Pokemon etc.)

My Cons for the N64:

-Cartridge=High cost, lack of space.

That's really all I got for cons on the N64. I can't even reall bemoan the 2-title launch set because Mario 64 was such a leap forward in gaming (I'd probably put it as one of the 5 most important games ever made) that it kept many entertained until more games started filtering down.

Dubs, I await your rebuttal.

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I'll even weigh in. I enjoyed my N64 more than my XBox. Must be something about the playability but the games were excellent too. Starfox, WCW/NWO, Mario 64, Donkey Kong 64, Turok Dinosaur Hunter, NBA Jam, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Rampage World Tour...

It's the last time I ever enjoyed owning a console.

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Meh, I'd rather have been playing on a PC in the mid 90's than a console. Goldeneye is fun but its no match for many of the PC FPS's at the time, especially when you consider that Half Life was released just a year later.

I loved Mario Kart 64 though.

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Wow. That's a tad harsh. I don't know how saying the N64 overperformed equates to "wanting to bitch" exactly. I'm not denying that it's a fun console, but it's definitely not in the echelon of "greatest consoles ever made". A lot of people look back on it with rose-tinted glasses and remember the good things, but there was a ton of bad.

Anyway, here goes. First, my counterpoint to Kellen.

-4 Controllers Slots (big deal at the time)

A grand design choice on paper that ended up mattering in... three games. Two of which (Goldeneye and Mario Kart 64) weren't that good to begin with.

The PSone and PS2 both did fine with just two, and it can really be argued that the four controller port design didn't really make that much of a difference until the original X-Box.

-Cartridges=No load times (play some early Saturn/Playstation and tell me you don't want to kill yourself over some of the load times)

Just an amazing statement, considering the fact that the cartridge format is largely what killed the thing. More on this later.

-Wrestling Games (World tour/Revenge/WM2000/No Mercy were better than anything ever put out.)

Agreed. They're a part of the handful of standout games for the system.

-First and Second Party awesomeness (Mario 64, Mario Kart 64, Goldeneye, Smash Bros., Zelda, Pokemon etc.)

And this is another major problem in that the only great non-wrestling games were first and second party.

A lot of this had to do with shitty third party support. Why was this? Because Nintendo fucked over their third parties by making it a system based around dated media. The cartridge format was dead by 95, and they insisted on it anyway because Mario 64 ran better. In fact, the entire system, from the cartridge format, to the weird controller, was basically designed around playing that one game. Anything beyond that point was secondary. This single decision fucked them beyond belief. Cartridges were expensive and difficult to develop for.

The only, and I mean only advantage to cartridges was lack of load time. Everything else suffered. CD quality sound? Nope, sorry, can't do that. FMV? Not a chance. This isn't even taking into account the fact that you had to use an Expansion Pak just so you could play certain games, because of the limited space. Don't forget that Final Fantasy VII (you know, the biggest console RPG of all time from a commercial standpoint) was originally an N64 game, until Square realized that this "superior" system couldn't handle it. There's a reason only 400 games were made for the N64, and only about a dozen of them were any good.

Which brings us to the claim of the N64 being one of the greatest systems of all time. Well, a system is only as good as its games, and the sad fact is that most people can name all of the standout games the N64 had off the top of their head. Try to do the same for the PSone, the PS2, the original NES, or the Super NES, the legit contenders to the "greatest" title. It's just about impossible.

Nintendo completely shot themselves in the foot with the N64, the damage so much that it took them two console generations to recover. Its failure is what took them from number one to number three in the market. How this can be considered a success by any stretch of the imagination is beyond me.

This isn't even taking into account stuff like the graphical botches, the fragile controllers, the N64HDD, etc. History hasn't been kind to it for a reason.

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Weren't the N64 and Saturn just completely overshadowed by the Playstation anyway? That's the definitive console of that generation.

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Weren't the N64 and Saturn just completely overshadowed by the Playstation anyway? That's the definitive console of that generation.

Yup. Though I do have a soft spot for the Saturn, despite its flaws (which are numerous).

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The N64 will always have a small spot in my heart because of the original Super Smash Bros., but it really was a terrible system. Hell, look how long it took for the fucking thing to come out. I sure Dubs remembers this since we were big into arcade-hopping, but they were advertising the console (when it was going to be called the "Ultra 64") on the original Killer Instinct arcade machine. By the time it did hit the market, it was already on the road to obsolescence.

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No joke, whenever me and my original fighting game crew would get together, and someone was playing like shit that day, we'd say he was "showing some Killer Instinct".

And to think, people are actually trying to get that series brought back.

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No joke, whenever me and my original fighting game crew would get together, and someone was playing like shit that day, we'd say he was "showing some Killer Instinct".

And to think, people are actually trying to get that series brought back.

At least it wasn't War Gods...

:sick:

Admittedly, I actually enjoyed K.I. back in the day. Absolutely horrible controls and animation, but hey, I was a teenage guy who enjoyed blood and guts in his games.

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For what it's worth Dubs, I use the term 'bitch' quite liberally. Pretty much when anyone has anything bad to say about anything I call it bitching.

ie. I bitch about the entire Pokemon series post-First Generation.

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-4 Controllers Slots (big deal at the time)

A grand design choice on paper that ended up mattering in... three games. Two of which (Goldeneye and Mario Kart 64) weren't that good to begin with.

Um...

Goldeneye, Smash Bros., Diddy Kong Racing (TOTALLY underrated, btw), Mario Kart, Star Fox, Mario Party, Perfect Dark...

I think the thing is that the N64 may have only had a handful of awesome games, but they were awesome nonetheless. Hell, Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time revolutionized 3D action/adventure gaming.

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People really need to go back and play Perfect Dark, because it's not as good as everyone remembers.

Mario Party and Diddy Kong Racing are irrelevant, especially when trying to argue how the N64 somehow is somehow better than the the first two Playstations and the two Nintendo consoles that came before it, all of which had more revolutionary games over more genres.

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I don't have a lot to add to the debate, but I'm with Dubs on this one. The N64 had a handful of great games and a giant boatload of ugly, dull, childish garbageware. If the decision to go with carts didn't completely obliterate their third-party support, the crazy-ass controllers certainly did.

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I was actually hoping for more of a fight since people seemed to be so passionate about it (and because I'd love to see more discussion in this section).

As an act of good will, I'll list some lesser known N64 games that I'm particularly fond of.

Space Station Silicon Valley

Blast Corps

Jet Force Gemini

Sin and Punishment

Mischief Makers

Snowboard Kids

Rocket: Robot on Wheels

Body Harvest

Beetle Adventure Racing

Ogre Battle 64

Custom Robo

Pokemon Puzzle League

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I was actually hoping for more of a fight since people seemed to be so passionate about it (and because I'd love to see more discussion in this section).

Well, you're just saying that it was a technically inferior console. We were just saying that we loved it anyway. So... two different points, I think.

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The whole basis of the argument was whether or not the N64 was one of the greatest consoles of all time. It wasn't from a sales or gaming standpoint.

To say that my side of the debate is just about technical inferiority is missing the point entirely. The NES is technically inferior to just about everything and it still kicks ass.

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Well then, in that case, the N64 did revolutionize 3D gaming. SM64 and Zelda alone did that. I don't know if you an say that the console was overall one of the "greatest," but it's definitely one of the most important.

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I think you can absolutely break down what makes a console the greatest. It's just a combination of factors: Game Library, Commercial Success, Importance (as you said), and a few others. That's part of what makes me want to do the tournament because I think there's a lot of good points to be made there.

Looking at the four systems I mentioned previously. Was the N64 more important than the NES or the PSone? No.

More than the Super NES? Maybe.

More than the PS2? I think there's definitely a case there.

The problem is that it doesn't stand up in any of the other categories. The N64 is remembered for a handful of great (and sometimes groundbreaking games), but there are at least 4-6 systems that were more important, sold better, and had better games.

EDIT: I also think that a big problem is that people sort of do the math in their head - Mario and Zelda were awesome, so that means the N64 was awesome, or that saying the N64 was mediocre somehow means that those games weren't very good. The truth is that a lot of failed consoles managed to put out awesome games, and often times these two things don't exactly correlate.

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I think you can absolutely break down what makes a console the greatest.

Oh, I just meant "I'm not sure if it's the greatest," not "I don't think it's possible to figure it out."

You're probably right about the rest of it.

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The game that got me back interested in games again was Mario 64. I read every article in every magazine about it. I spent hours explaining to my mom how a totally 3d game meant you can actually walk around bush and tree and see them from every angle. It sounds lame now, but that was cutting edge back then. It's funny though, because after all that, I never got an N64 until late in it's life because the one time I got to play it at a Wal-Mart demo, the controller was stuck and Mario just ran around in circles. That changed me to a Sega guy.

Yes, the N64 was probably the most important system in gaming history, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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