The leisurely comic discussion thread


Aaron Robinson

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I think the violence only should bother people when it's violence for violence sake. Which is why a lot of people don't mind Blackest Night, yet think Cry for Justice was a piece of shit.

It really depends on the context, going in, everyone knew Blackest Night would be violent, but nobody knew how fucked up CFJ would be, and the rise of arsenal would be.

Just my thoughts. I can't say anything for Marvel as I don't read enough, or any to really make a judgement.

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My daughter enjoys superhero stories. I feel awkward when I explain to her that most of the superhero stuff Daddy likes, she can't see. I buy superhero movies and she can't watch them. She likes the Justice League characters, but I can't even tell her about, like, the last five years or so of their lives? I don't want these companies to censor themselves, by any means. I just want them to realize that there's a difference between an honest, realistic story that has violence and a story that's built around gratuitous violence.

Batman: The Brave and the Bold and Tiny Titans, man.

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My daughter enjoys superhero stories. I feel awkward when I explain to her that most of the superhero stuff Daddy likes, she can't see. I buy superhero movies and she can't watch them. She likes the Justice League characters, but I can't even tell her about, like, the last five years or so of their lives? I don't want these companies to censor themselves, by any means. I just want them to realize that there's a difference between an honest, realistic story that has violence and a story that's built around gratuitous violence.

Batman: The Brave and the Bold and Tiny Titans, man.

Also, for trades the old Justice League Unlimited comics, they have the have the cartoon style and are fun for kids.

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I don't see why Marvel gets a free pass on the violence, I really don't. I'm really attempting to remain neutral here, because I'm really warming back up to Marvel, and I like a lot of the stuff they're doing, but it's about the same across the board.

I know this sounds a little off, but I think Marvel's violence isn't as bad because its usually linked to violent characters. Punisher, Wolverine, these are naturally violent characters. Even the Sentry thing, he's a fairly hardcore character who did what he did to a mass-murdering alien symbiote. I'm fine with it. I'm not saying that these are all kid-friendly comics, the big market is 16-40 year old guys so that's who the mainstream is marketed toward. I'm just saying that this ultra-violent shit isn't happening in Fantastic Four, Amazing Spider-man or Invincible Iron Man. Not that everything in those books is suitable for kids, its just that they aren't hardcore over 18 books either.

DC is much more uneven. subject matter relating to the major characters very often turns extremely dark, and I don't think people expect that when they decide to pick up a big promoted title like 52. I mean, compare X-Necrosha's body count to Blackest Night and its no contest, Blackest Night is a slaughter, and that's a big mainstream DC title. If the worst you can say about Marvel is that they killed Goliath and an Alien mass murderer in high profile books then I'd say they're far better in my book.

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My daughter enjoys superhero stories. I feel awkward when I explain to her that most of the superhero stuff Daddy likes, she can't see. I buy superhero movies and she can't watch them. She likes the Justice League characters, but I can't even tell her about, like, the last five years or so of their lives? I don't want these companies to censor themselves, by any means. I just want them to realize that there's a difference between an honest, realistic story that has violence and a story that's built around gratuitous violence.

I completely agree with this. Comic companies need to look toward the future instead of looking back at the past. If they keep their focus on appealing to the comic readers they already have, the average age of those readers is just going to get older and older. Comics need to be made more accessible to younger readers and it doesn't need to be an either/or situation. There's a difference between comics that can appeal to both adults and children and comics that are aimed solely at children.

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I don't see why Marvel gets a free pass on the violence, I really don't. I'm really attempting to remain neutral here, because I'm really warming back up to Marvel, and I like a lot of the stuff they're doing, but it's about the same across the board.

I'm just saying that this ultra-violent shit isn't happening in Fantastic Four, Amazing Spider-man or Invincible Iron Man. Not that everything in those books is suitable for kids, its just that they aren't hardcore over 18 books either.

It's not happening in Superman, Wonder Woman or Flash, either.

Oh, and this panel, Fantastic Four 578:

prv4975_pg7.jpg

Because it's not an industry-wide issue, guys.

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Truth. Tiny Titans, Billy Batson and the Power of SHAZAM!, Batman: The Brave and the Bold, Marvel Adventures: Iron Man and/Avengers, Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers, Power Pack, it goes on. Not a bad book in the bunch, either.

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But at least the books are there. I don't actually think it's possible to go totally PG, in an instant. They are expanding their fanbase with these books. I mean, ten years ago, were there this many kid friendly books on the market? No chance. Fifteen, it was even worse. Trends are a gradual thing, big changes alienate people. Progress is being made.

And yes, I'm aware of the irony of saying these sort of things with Robert Kirkman's UBER-VIOLENT take on the Golden Age Destroyer as my avatar.

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You have to build a brand and they're doing that. More than they've done so since the eighties. If they automatically made 30% of the books they published for kids, they'd go out of business.

Seriously, I don't see why this is such a big issue. Have a problem with the story but I think it's a little prudish to come out against violence in comics now.

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I'm not saying that DC is more violent than Marvel (far from it), but I do think that it's a little more shocking to see DC heroes in super-violent situations. Marvel's got characters like Captain America (a WWII vet), Wolverine, Punisher, and a ton of others who have much more violent character histories. But out of the Justice League, Wonder Woman's probably the only one that could get away with extreme brutality, but even she's got that "no kill" policy to live up to.

With DC, you generally expect to see the hero fly in and save the day, with no blood being spilled; you usually don't expect to see a guy's arm being ripped off. Granted, Marvel does that all the time, but I think we're a little more jaded to that now.

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"How did you like that Batman: The Brave and The Bold comic, son?"

"It was great dad! There was this other superhero called the Flash in it and he was so cool! Is there a Flash comic book?"

"There is son, but you'll have to be a little older before you can read it."

"Okay dad. Is there one about Superman? There's got to be one about Superman, he's the greatest super-hero of all time!"

"There is son. There's actually a lot of them, but...you'll have to wait until you're older."

"Oh. Ok."

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"How did you like that Batman: The Brave and The Bold comic, son?"

"It was great dad! There was this other superhero called the Flash in it and he was so cool! Is there a Flash comic book?"

"There is son, but you'll have to be a little older before you can read it."

"Okay dad. Is there one about Superman? There's got to be one about Superman, he's the greatest super-hero of all time!"

"There is son. There's actually a lot of them, but...you'll have to wait until you're older."

"Oh. Ok."

"You wanna go read Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers instead?"

"Sure, dad!"

It's about bringing them into the medium, not the characters.

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The argument doesn't hold water though. Batman and Superman both killed Nazis. Batman used to gun down bad guys or throw them off roofs. There's no real precedent of DC being more wholesome than Marvel. Look at the Silver Age; both companies were publishing the same type of material (albeit, Marvel's was better). The Bronze Age, the same thing. The eighties, hell DC led the charge in violent comics. Marvel followed suit.

There's no reason it should be shocking.

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"How did you like that Batman: The Brave and The Bold comic, son?"

"It was great dad! There was this other superhero called the Flash in it and he was so cool! Is there a Flash comic book?"

"There is son, but you'll have to be a little older before you can read it."

"Okay dad. Is there one about Superman? There's got to be one about Superman, he's the greatest super-hero of all time!"

"There is son. There's actually a lot of them, but...you'll have to wait until you're older."

"Oh. Ok."

"You wanna go read Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers instead?"

"Sure, dad!"

"Hey Dad, there was this really cool guy named Captain America in this one. Does he have his own comic?"

"He does son, it's actually one of the best comics of the decade. Unfortunately, you're going to have to wait until you're older to read it."

I can do this all day. I have nothing more pressing going on. The point I'm trying to make is that having a handful of titles for younger readers, while the majority of what you publish is for older readers with little wiggle room, is not healthy for the industry. And like I said in an earlier post, there's a big difference between making comics that can appeal to both older and younger readers and comics that are just for kids. I'm not saying that every single comic needs to suddenly be made strictly for kids. There should be comics that are aimed solely at adults and there should be comics for very young kids, but a majority of the line should be in a middle ground.

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There's also lots of collections featuring Superman and Flash in totally wholesome stories that you could give that kid.

Parents could try, you know, vetting the books. Because, let's face it, kids aren't going to get into the hobby on their own these days. I read comics with my kids and then I read my comics and they know that there are "bad guys" and "monsters" in daddy's comics. They know. They don't even pick up the books on my bedside table.

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There should be comics that are aimed solely at adults and there should be comics for very young kids, but a majority of the line should be in a middle ground.

They did that. And the industry imploded. They are staying afloat by appealing to their actual fanbase, older people.

They can't all of a sudden skew young because lots, me included, don't want to read comics like that anymore.

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Oh, I totally agree. Save the uber-violence for the MAX Books, and keep the exploding back crabs the fuck away from my Fantastic Four. Should comics tone down the violence, or at least move it off panel? Yeah.

Granted, my old man sat me down to watch Platoon when I was like 7, and asked me "What I learned" afterward, so I might be a little warped in thinking what a kid can handle. :P

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Kids can handle a hell of a lot more than we give them credit for.

This generation is just being made more pussified than the previous one.

Because guess what? Silly ole Green Goblin threw an innocent teenaged girl to her death in the 70s, and an insane naked Russian blew his head off in the eighties in what is considered the more wholesome hero's book at Marvel.

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My thing is simple, violence for the sake of violence isn't artistic. Well, it can be, but save that for the MAX books. If the story really requires violence (say Blackest Night or BuckyCap taking on AIM terrorists) go for it. If you're trying to be violent for the sake of shock (Blob eating Wasp, Roy's Arm), think long and hard about the story being written, and decide if this is what the book actually needs.

EDIT: Yes. Gwen Stacy and Kraven are both great examples.

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I'm not saying we should go back to the Comics Code, of course this generation can handle a lot more than what was perceived of the kids of that generation, but comics should be as much for kids as they are for adults. Look at the 1960s. A kid during that time could read any super-hero title he wanted, from DC and Marvel. Of course, that heyday of comics is past, but the variety of the books available at that time should be available to kids today. I don't see why they should only be restricted to a handful of titles.

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