Episode 88

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Kid Flash causes trouble for the HIVE Five ("Lightspeed"), while Ding Dong Daddy steals Robin's greatest secret ("Revved Up"). After five seasons, the origin of the Teen Titans is revealed ("Go! "). Brain makes his move against the young heroes ("Calling All Titans"), and Beast Boy takes it upon himself to end Brain's quest for power once and for all ("Titans Together"). Then Teen Titans comes to a close with the possible return of Terra ("Things Change"). Also, a listener has a brilliant theory as to how the dead Titan might have returned from her stone imprisonment. [ 2:09:48 || 59.4 MB ]

The above is from: http://www.worldsfinestpodcast.com/episodes/wfp_088.mp3

[Koete]

Could the briefcase be an homage to Pulp Fiction?

[Garfield]

Could the briefcase be an homage to Pulp Fiction?

I'd have to think so. I hate unexposed content plot devices though. That, combined with the utterly superfluous Red X, compound the ending to this episode.

[Kscriv]

All the wrestling references/slang you used and you missed two very easy ones.

1. Hive-5 are clearly going nWo at the beginning, hijacking the broadcast and spraypainting their logo? Yeah.

2. Mas y Manos had the ULTIMATE Hot Tag into the final battle.

Regarding the discussion of anime and how not every story is a happy ending. That's one of the reasons I love anime. All the stories that don't have a happy ending make you so damn happy when you do get to see one.

[Missy]

Could the briefcase be an homage to Pulp Fiction?

It's absolutely a reference to Pulp Fiction, which I meant to mention, but forgot.

All the wrestling references/slang you used and you missed two very easy ones.

1. Hive-5 are clearly going nWo at the beginning, hijacking the broadcast and spraypainting their logo? Yeah.

2. Mas y Manos had the ULTIMATE Hot Tag into the final battle.

Except for the one featuring LARRY~!, I don't watch the opening theme song. So I didn't realize the HIVE Five took control of it until James mentioned it.

And yeah, that was a hot tag, wasn't it?

[Stavros]

Have you guys seriously not seen Wacky Races? I mean, I'm not saying that Revved up was a great episode or anything, but this was a clear and HUGE nod to Wacky Races, Cannonball Run, as well at Red X being a direct reference to Racer X from Speed Racer. You guys seriously couldn't see what this episode was doing with all that? It's like Dick Dastardly suffered all that for nothing!

[Missy]

I've seen Wacky Races and Cannonball Run, and it does drive home the Red X / Racer X connection, but it's still a shit episode.

[Puckydream]

"Revved Up" always made me think it was just a pitch to make a Titans Kart Racing game.

[slothian]

Well, Mike utterly Suavestar-ed "Go!" there.

[GoFlash]

Listen to the music when Robin first appears in "Go". Then go watch the flashback scene in Return of The Joker when Tim Drake strikes a pose on the rooftop, just before saving disguised-Harley from thugs. It's the same theme. Robin also let his cape hang around his body in "Go", hiding his body, which was a pose that Tim used a lot in Teen Titans v3 (and maybe in the Batman comics too, but I never read them to know).

I think "Lightspeed" and "Go" suffer from the same problem as "Speed Demons" back in Superman (the one with the Flash). It almost seems like they rely on the spoiler ("In this issue: The Flash!/Kid Flash/The Origin Of The Teen Titans") - almost as if they feel fans will be so excited to see the guest star or the origin, that they don't have to work quite as hard as they would on a more "everyday" story. Don't get me wrong - I love all three episodes, but there's always that bit in the back of my mind saying "That was cool, but...it could have been better."

As to Beast Boy deciding to go after Mallah and have Robin snag the Brain, I actually thought that built on what they were doing. The trope is always main hero captures main villain, but in reality (if you'll pardon the phrase) sometimes it makes more sense for Superman to fight the giant killer robot and let Maggie Sawyer tackle Lex Luthor. Beast Boy wanted to capture the Brain, but he's also been stepping up to the plate and showing leadership and determination. He looks at the Brain and Mallah, and at himself and Robin, and makes assignments based on how to best accomplish his goal. I thought that actually fit with the leadership he'd already shown - part of being a good leader is picking the right person for the job. It's not how you usually see a superhero story play out, but I like that sometimes, especially when it plays into the character development they'd been doing for BB.

Chris

[James D.]

As to Beast Boy deciding to go after Mallah and have Robin snag the Brain, I actually thought that built on what they were doing. The trope is always main hero captures main villain, but in reality (if you'll pardon the phrase) sometimes it makes more sense for Superman to fight the giant killer robot and let Maggie Sawyer tackle Lex Luthor. Beast Boy wanted to capture the Brain, but he's also been stepping up to the plate and showing leadership and determination. He looks at the Brain and Mallah, and at himself and Robin, and makes assignments based on how to best accomplish his goal. I thought that actually fit with the leadership he'd already shown - part of being a good leader is picking the right person for the job. It's not how you usually see a superhero story play out, but I like that sometimes, especially when it plays into the character development they'd been doing for BB.

Exactly what I was going for, but said much more eloquently.

[KnightWing]

Robin also let his cape hang around his body in "Go", hiding his body, which was a pose that Tim used a lot in Teen Titans v3 (and maybe in the Batman comics too, but I never read them to know).

Dick did that in BTAS, too. It's a prevalent comics thing, though it's not seen often anymore.

[Garfield]

As to Beast Boy deciding to go after Mallah and have Robin snag the Brain, I actually thought that built on what they were doing. The trope is always main hero captures main villain, but in reality (if you'll pardon the phrase) sometimes it makes more sense for Superman to fight the giant killer robot and let Maggie Sawyer tackle Lex Luthor. Beast Boy wanted to capture the Brain, but he's also been stepping up to the plate and showing leadership and determination. He looks at the Brain and Mallah, and at himself and Robin, and makes assignments based on how to best accomplish his goal. I thought that actually fit with the leadership he'd already shown - part of being a good leader is picking the right person for the job. It's not how you usually see a superhero story play out, but I like that sometimes, especially when it plays into the character development they'd been doing for BB.

Exactly what I was going for, but said much more eloquently.

I thought if was very Batman-like for Robin to let Beast Boy continue to take the lead against Mallah and the Brain.

[GoFlash]

Robin also let his cape hang around his body in "Go", hiding his body, which was a pose that Tim used a lot in Teen Titans v3 (and maybe in the Batman comics too, but I never read them to know).

Dick did that in BTAS, too. It's a prevalent comics thing, though it's not seen often anymore.

Huh. I'll have to look for that next time I rewatch BTAS. It always seemed very Batman to me, and not so much a Robin thing (like I said, except for Tim in TTv#, but I'm not exactly an expert on the Bat-comics.

Chris

[GoFlash]

As to Beast Boy deciding to go after Mallah and have Robin snag the Brain, I actually thought that built on what they were doing. The trope is always main hero captures main villain, but in reality (if you'll pardon the phrase) sometimes it makes more sense for Superman to fight the giant killer robot and let Maggie Sawyer tackle Lex Luthor. Beast Boy wanted to capture the Brain, but he's also been stepping up to the plate and showing leadership and determination. He looks at the Brain and Mallah, and at himself and Robin, and makes assignments based on how to best accomplish his goal. I thought that actually fit with the leadership he'd already shown - part of being a good leader is picking the right person for the job. It's not how you usually see a superhero story play out, but I like that sometimes, especially when it plays into the character development they'd been doing for BB.

Exactly what I was going for, but said much more eloquently.

Of course, on the other hand, the reason that the primary hero captures the main villain IS the trope is because it's more emotionally satisfying, and let's face it - "Titans Together" appeals to us on that gut level. There's that battle against unbelievable odds, the Big Damn Heroes moment when Cyborg, Starfire, and Raven show up, Beast Boy's charge across the field to the Brain (and nothing shall stay him from his goal), so to then switch to the more realistic, character driven approach rather than the more emotionally satisfying, hero-faces-main-villain-and-defeats-him-alone moment is a bit of a switch from the feel of the episode leading up to that, so I can see how Mike found it jarring as well.

Chris

[Puckydream]

If memory servers right, I think Mike said the words "threw a rock" in this episode, and didn't comment.

[Missy]

If memory servers right, I think Mike said the words "threw a rock" in this episode, and didn't comment.

While I was synopsizing "Things Change" I realized what I was about to say, but I didn't want to interrupt the flow, so I stressed the words "a rock." That was my way of making the comment without actually doing so.

[Puckydream]

If memory servers right, I think Mike said the words "threw a rock" in this episode, and didn't comment.

While I was synopsizing "Things Change" I realized what I was about to say, but I didn't want to interrupt the flow, so I stressed the words "a rock." That was my way of making the comment without actually doing so.

I can definitely see that. That raises my grade of the episode.

[MatthewMG]

I wonder if some of Mike's problems with GO! stem from it being an adaptation. New Teen Titans #1 is a fun comic but it's plot is pretty thin and they cut out a lot of material from the original 25 page issue. They had to stretch the story quite a bit to fill 22 or so minutes. That last fight with Trogarr isn't even in the book.

Also if Superman can use his super senses to make sure Darkseid won't collide with any innocent people before punching him through those buildings in Destoryer, he can probably use them to make sure there's no danger of debris from said buildings crushing people on the street below. IIRC we don't see anybody getting crushed by debris from those buildings, so it's a safe bet he made sure no one was in the area when he knocked Darkseid in that direction. He wouldn't risk innocent lives just to show off. Just sayin'.

Argent's in Calling All Titans? I'm gonna have to check that one out!

[KnightWing]

Also if Superman can use his super senses to make sure Darkseid won't collide with any innocent people before punching him through those buildings in Destoryer, he can probably use them to make sure there's no danger of debris from said buildings crushing people on the street below. IIRC we don't see anybody getting crushed by debris from those buildings, so it's a safe bet he made sure no one was in the area when he knocked Darkseid in that direction. He wouldn't risk innocent lives just to show off. Just sayin'.

AND, as I said in my email, there's very few people shown on the street (only one shot of them in the entire episode, I think), so it's possible that the entire city was evacuated except for the psychos at the Daily Planet.

I mean, no matter what, to say that Superman committed mass murder when it's not explicitly shown is just insane.

[You Know Who]

Also if Superman can use his super senses to make sure Darkseid won't collide with any innocent people before punching him through those buildings in Destoryer, he can probably use them to make sure there's no danger of debris from said buildings crushing people on the street below. IIRC we don't see anybody getting crushed by debris from those buildings, so it's a safe bet he made sure no one was in the area when he knocked Darkseid in that direction. He wouldn't risk innocent lives just to show off. Just sayin'.

AND, as I said in my email, there's very few people shown on the street (only one shot of them in the entire episode, I think), so it's possible that the entire city was evacuated except for the psychos at the Daily Planet.

I mean, no matter what, to say that Superman committed mass murder when it's not explicitly shown is just insane.

O, OF COURSE Superman didn't kill anybody when he punched Darkseid through all those skyscrapers, O NO...the buildings were ALL empty, just like the ones the Joker destroyed in World's Finest. And NOBODY was in the streets of Metropolis during that, a city of several million people...

[KnightWing]

- _ -

Okay, kiddos. Buckle up.

*AHEM*

(a good portion of this is the email I sent in that was read on the podcast. I've added a bit to it.)

(1). Superman has x-ray vision, telescopic vision, and super-speed. He could very easily scan those buildings (as well as the ground beneath them) to spot any people still in or near the buildings, thus ensuring no one was harmed.

(2). As James pointed out, Apokolips was invading, and it's likely that those tall buildings were evacuated. This is a a post-9/11 world, after all.

Also, there are only two instances (to my knowledge) of civilians shown in Metropolis AT ALL during the episode:

(A) In the Daily Planet

(B) A few people on the street after the Planet was destroyed.

Now, the employees of the Daily Planet have been known to adamantly refuse to leave their jobs during crises, so they're not a really good determinant for whether or not the city has been evacuated. Also, the shot of people on the street comes after the Planet's destruction, so it's conceivable that those few people were running away from the wrecked building, and that there really is no one else in the city at all.

(3). Even if the above is not true, you have to weigh the final choices: either Superman suddenly stopped caring about human life, or no human life was actually in danger. Which do you think is actually more likely?

Yes, they could have shown that the towers were empty before Superman punched Darkseid through them. But why break the story's pacing and take time to do that in such an already-packed episode? Honestly, I don't think it matters.

If they had shown people in the buildings, I'd agree that it's a problem. But since they didn't, we have to choose to assume either that Superman turned evil, or that he didn't. I choose the latter.