Episode 93

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A mindless Solomon Grundy returns from the dead, forcing Shayera to end her exile ("Wake the Dead"). Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and Batman track a time traveler to the past and future, where they meet Jonah Hex and the Terry McGinnis Batman ("The Once and Future Thing"). Black Canary and Green Arrow attempt to save Wildcat from himself ("The Cat and the Canary"). Mister Miracle, Big Barda, and The Flash save Oberon from the clutches of Granny Goodness ("The Ties That Bind"). And rogue elements within Cadmus release Doomsday and a kryptonite-laced nuclear missile on Superman ("The Doomsday Sanction"). [ 2:28:48 || 68.1 MB ]

The above is from: http://www.worldsfinestpodcast.com/episodes/wfp_093.mp3

[Guest TFG1Mike]

Listening now... I'm at The Once and Future Thing ep..... Mike you said the date was 1883.... first thing I thought of was hey if it was 1885 they could have met up with Doc Brown.

[Molly]

Hal Jordan was voiced by Adam Baldwin, who had done Jonah Hex in the first part, and is famous for Animal Mother in Full Metal Jacket and Jayne in Firefly.

He's not the only Firefly cast member to show up, either. Vixen is Gina Torres, who played Zoe. Black Canary is Morrena Baccarian, who played Inara. And Vigilante, of course, is played by Nathan Fillion. As a matter of fact, Hunter's Moon has Vig and Vixen in a spaceship.

And James, +1 for Chris Farley references.

[Stavros]

Probably the strongest group of episodes you guys have covered in one go for me. This is where the JLU enters its golden age, with the best episodes and story arcs.

[GoFlash]

I love the line about "Your favorite movie is Old Yeller. You know exactly what he means." It does a lot in a few seconds. It calls back to the relationship between John & Shayera, because she couches things in terms of his favorite movie. It also calls back to that bit in "Hearts & Minds" when Flash and Kilowog are searching John's apartment for his battery. Finally, it lets them tell us that they are going to put Grundy down...well, like a rabid dog, clearly but without using words like kill or die that would trigger the censors.

Also, just a quick bit of non-verbal characterization: When the car goes off the bridge and Shayera is swooping to save the mother and child, the mother unbuckles the child and hands her to Shayera first before making any move to get out herself. A lot of times, the hero just grabs all the civilians at once and pulls them away - I liked that little bit extra here.

Great voice actors. Farrah Forke returned as Barda from "The Call". Adam Baldwin was great as Jonah Hex. Ben Browder really sold Farscape for me - it was great to hear him as Bat Lash (who seemed to be drawing a little from the old "Maverick" TV show with James Garner, and the movie with Mel Gibson).

El Diablo was clearly an unbranded Zorro; of course, Zorro was a big inspiration (in and out of universe) for Batman. Nestor Carbonell, who voiced him, was the mayor in "The Dark Knight" and also played Batmanuel! on The Tick.

The effects when the timeline were unraveling were very much like what we saw in "Crisis On Infinite Earths".

Let's face it; trick arrows only get you so far in a league with power rings, Amazons, and Kryptonians. You have to use your brain, and it was good to see that from Green Arrow, especially considering that early on, he was essentially a re-themed Batman (played with more in "Batman: The Brave & The Bold"). There was also a callback to the first JLU episode. Batman wanted Arrow in the League to keep them grounded, and keep hubris from crippling the League. Granted that Wildcat didn't have any powers, but that's exactly what Arrow did in "The Cat & The Canary". I also liked that they made it clear that Canary is a very skilled fighter who also has her Canary Cry for backup, rather than the other way around. This is someone who, in the comics can challenge Lady Shiva, after all.

I'm a bit torn about "Ties That Bind" I've been a Flash fan since my senior year of high school, when the TV show came out. It was great to see Flash finally return, and there were some fun bits. It's an easy episode to watch casually, but I just don't get drawn into it that much. It's a bit like "Speed Demons" in that regard. I did like J'onn's interrogation trick at the end, which was used all the time in Christopher Stasheff's "Warlock" series - tell someone what information you're trying to get out of them, and it's almost impossible for them not to think about it. If you're telepathic, it's an easy way to get information up to the surface of your target's mind, where's it's easier to read.

Chris

[GoFlash]

Hal Jordan was voiced by Adam Baldwin, who had done Jonah Hex in the first part, and is famous for Animal Mother in Full Metal Jacket and Jayne in Firefly.

He's not the only Firefly cast member to show up, either. Vixen is Gina Torres, who played Zoe. Black Canary is Morrena Baccarian, who played Inara. And Vigilante, of course, is played by Nathan Fillion. As a matter of fact, Hunter's Moon has Vig and Vixen in a spaceship.

And James, +1 for Chris Farley references.

Then "Brave & The Bold" has Alan Tudyk (Wash) as Barry Allen; "Superman/Batman: Apocalypse" has Summer "River" Glau as Supergirl; everyone but Book, Kaylee, and Simon has been involved in DC properties.

Chris

[Molly]

Well, if we wanna get into voice actors, Pow-Wow Smith sure sounded a lot like John Redcorn from King of the Hill.

[You Know Who]

Hal Jordan was voiced by Adam Baldwin, who had done Jonah Hex in the first part, and is famous for Animal Mother in Full Metal Jacket and Jayne in Firefly.

Unfortunately, Baldwin also voiced Superman in Superman: Doomsday

[GoFlash]

Well, if we wanna get into voice actors, Pow-Wow Smith sure sounded a lot like John Redcorn from King of the Hill.

Jonathan Joss. He took over as John Redcorn in Season 2. (Per TV.com - I don't think I've every watched more than snatches of King of the Hill).

Chris

[KnightWing]

I've never heard the word "snatches" used like that before.

[GoFlash]

Last batch of notes -

Granted, by that point, Chronos no longer cared about messing with the timestream, but he actually killed Chuckie without altering time. The Chicxulub crater in the Yucutan was caused by an impact estimated to be about 100,000,000 megatons of TNT (or 2 million times the power of the biggest nuclear bomb ever made). Safe to say that Chuckie was vaporized, so we don't have to worry about Vandal Savage finding his old light saber 30,000 years ago or anything.

Jeremy Piven also voiced Elongated Man in "Greatest Story Never Told".

I like the characterization of Waller & Eiling. Cadmus has always had a defensible moral position. Waller clearly believes that the League is a threat, but this clearly sets her up as an antagonist but not a bad guy. This sets up the end of this season, and some of next season, where she works with the League, even if they're not exchanging Christmas cards. Eiling, on the other hand, is being defined as morally questionable, not just in opposition to the League.

My biggest gripe with "Doomsday Sanction" is what could have been. They really set up a believable motive for Cadmus, and Waller and Batman's discussions don't have a clear winner. Then at the end, where he feels that Superman went too far in banishing Doomsday on his own initiative, Batman is clearly looking at things from Cadmus' point of view. However, in future episodes, this never comes back. That would have been a great subplot - Batman working to curtail the League, working with Cadmus, or gosh, even compiling lists of ways to take down the Leaguers if he ever needs to.

As to Doomsday's creation, it's not a complete contradiction. Cadmus took on its current mission following "A Better World". Later this season, though, we find that Hamilton turned away from Superman at the end of "Legacy" in STAS. After all, that was a fairly well publicized incident - it makes perfect sense that the government may have been working on an initiative to counter Superman between the end of STAS and "A Better World". Following the events of "A Better World", many of the individuals working on anti-Superman plans may have been folded into Cadmus.

Chris

[SteveJRogers]

Re: Fire at Will joke.

Funny you should say that, a joke I'd like to think about that never happened in Star Trek: The Next Generation, but should have is...well, you know how damn literal Data was during the first few seasons of that show? I always thought it'd be cute if Picard told the security officer (either Worf or Yar) to "FIRE AT WILL" and then Data proceeds to get up, turn around and aim his phaser directly at William Riker!

[spider-neil]

great show guys just one thing you didn't mention with regards to the doomsday sanction,

the closing scene where hawkgirl gives john that angry look. why do you think she did that? do you think she (hawkgirl) feels betrayed by john (shacking up with vixen) after everything she and john went through with their relationship?

[James D.]

That is something I meant to bring up. I've never fully understood why Shayera was so angry at John all throughout JLU.

[Molly]

That is something I meant to bring up. I've never fully understood why Shayera was so angry at John all throughout JLU.

I think it's kind of based on the whole way John reacted to the Katar Hol revelation, but then totally moves on to Vixen within a short period. I'm not saying I agree with the way they showed it, but I do think that's the route they're trying to take. Shayera is pissed that John moved on so quickly.

[James D.]

That is something I meant to bring up. I've never fully understood why Shayera was so angry at John all throughout JLU.

I think it's kind of based on the whole way John reacted to the Katar Hol revelation, but then totally moves on to Vixen within a short period. I'm not saying I agree with the way they showed it, but I do think that's the route they're trying to take. Shayera is pissed that John moved on so quickly.

But aren't we to assume that JLU takes place at least a few years after the conclusion of JL?

[Molly]

That is something I meant to bring up. I've never fully understood why Shayera was so angry at John all throughout JLU.

I think it's kind of based on the whole way John reacted to the Katar Hol revelation, but then totally moves on to Vixen within a short period. I'm not saying I agree with the way they showed it, but I do think that's the route they're trying to take. Shayera is pissed that John moved on so quickly.

But aren't we to assume that JLU takes place at least a few years after the conclusion of JL?

I thought it was only a few months, because by the time J'onn decides to leave (towards the end of the show) he'd been on the Watchtower for two years.

[James D.]

If that's the case, then it's amazing how quickly they build those Watchtowers in these shows.

[Koete]

Well if the H.I.V.E. members can remodel Titans Tower in no time at all...

[KnightWing]

I remember reading that the second watchtower was built in either six months or a year. So, yes, it was built very quickly.

If you take into account the fact that Crisis on Two Earths shows Superman, GL and the rest helping with the construction of the new station, it makes sense.

[Guest TFG1Mike]

Watchtowers are built faster than Death Stars!!

Apparently not enough time has passed that all wounds are healed? So it would make sense that she was mad at him.

[You Know Who]

If you take into account the fact that Crisis on Two Earths shows Superman, GL and the rest helping with the construction of the new station, it makes sense.

cough cough NOT IN CONTINUITY cough cough

[Molly]

If you take into account the fact that Crisis on Two Earths shows Superman, GL and the rest helping with the construction of the new station, it makes sense.

cough cough NOT IN CONTINUITY cough cough

Oh, can it. It's pretty clear that Crisis on Two Earths was MEANT to be the tying thread from JL to JLU, but they never made it. Then, they used the ideas/script anyway.

Sure, it's not in direct continuity, but I'd say almost the exact same thing happened within the DCAU.

[KnightWing]

Oh, can it. It's pretty clear that Crisis on Two Earths was MEANT to be the tying thread from JL to JLU, but they never made it. Then, they used the ideas/script anyway.

Sure, it's not in direct continuity, but I'd say almost the exact same thing happened within the DCAU.

Thank you.

I thought about writing that, too, but I figured people would understand what I meant.

[You Know Who]

If you take into account the fact that Crisis on Two Earths shows Superman, GL and the rest helping with the construction of the new station, it makes sense.

cough cough NOT IN CONTINUITY cough cough

Oh, can it. It's pretty clear that Crisis on Two Earths was MEANT to be the tying thread from JL to JLU, but they never made it. Then, they used the ideas/script anyway.

Sure, it's not in direct continuity, but I'd say almost the exact same thing happened within the DCAU.

Flawless logic, except that John Stewart is replaced by Hal Jordan, Aquaman apparently grew back his hand and returned to his Silver Age design, and the exterior of the Watchtower looks nothing like the one in Justice League. Also, the character designs look absolutely nothing like their counterparts in JL and JLU and the voice actors give the characters completely different inflections, with exception of Flash and J'onn. And speaking of J'onn, the White Martians take over Mars rather than the Imperium and Starro didn't appear in the DCAU to battle the Justice League until the Batman Beyond episode "The Call". Had such a battle taken a place in the DCAU before "The Call", Superman would have disposed off the Starro in his zoo long before it took him over in that episode.