Episode 500

[Dan]

Saturday Morning 101

-Alright, a fun segment. I know it's beyond Dan & Jon's era (and sadly, well in terms of same Saturday morning experience, everything from Superman: The Animated Series forward really is more weekday afternoon, after-school, cartoon fare, yes I say there IS a difference) but have either of you've seen the Ruby Spears late 1980s cartoon?

That segment was actually supposed to be twice as long, as we DID watch and cover the 1988 Ruby-Spears series. However, Skype fucking sucks, and we had to lose it due to technical difficulties.

[SkylerQ91]

That segment was actually supposed to be twice as long, as we DID watch and cover the 1988 Ruby-Spears series. However, Skype fucking sucks, and we had to lose it due to technical difficulties.

I thought you said that it was going to be covered too and then the segment ended. I'm glad I'm not crazy. Well, aside from being one of the few who liked all 10 years of Smallville.

-Skyler

[Flashfan1]

I still can't wrap my head around that fact that this is EPISODE 500 congratulations everybody!

[Donomark]

Wow...that was really excellent. Congradulations to everyone involved in keeping Earth-2 one of the best sites around!!!

[dc20willsave]

Finished listening to the Grumpy Old Fans. Awesome work gents. I'll agree that For the Man Who Has Everything is definitely one of the best Superman stories of all time. One thing that has always bothered me about the story, and this is not a detraction, is which birthday is Superman celebrating. Is it his physical birthday, the day that the Kent's found him, or the day that they have falsified on his birth certificate?

[Dan]

That's an excellent question. If it were post-Crisis I'd say unequivocally that it was the day the Kents found him. However, pre-Crisis, Superman had total recall and could remember, in detail, every single thing that had ever happened to him from the moment Lara pounded him out (losing this was one of the best changes Byrne made, imho), and because he really thought of himself as a Kryptonian, I would hazard to guess it was his actual date of birth.

[SkylerQ91]

Just noticed: The cameo on Superman was referenced by Ian as the 40's Superman and Lois (Kirk Alan & Noel Neill) while Mike thought it was the 1950's Lois & Jimmy (which could be Noel or Phyllis Coates depending on the era of the show and Jack Larson). Ian was correct in Identifying Noel and Kirk however she and Jack Larson had cameos in Superman Returns. Could that be where confusion came from?

-Skyler

[Kenny Evil]

Listened to a few segments so far and it's all worked pretty well. It seems like Dan and I have similar thoughts on DC showing who Superman is by showing who he is not every few years. Interesting point on the best Superman stories being alternate realities or what ifs.

Show 500... wow. Can't think of any other podcast that's gotten that far while still spinning off new podcasts. Well done everyone.

[Donomark]

I have to say the Grumpy Old Fans segment completely sucked me in. I skipped class to finish that. But I disagree with Dan in that it's anywhere close to being the greatest comic book story of all time. Just a difference of opinion. I will say the comic is better than the animated adaptation by a wdie margin.

I will say that the change of Clark's/Kal-El's dream was a deliberate one. Elaboration can be found here: http://jl.toonzone.n...7/episode27.htm

Bruce Timm on Kal-El’s Black Mercy-induced dream: “We made a conscious effort to make Clark’s family life not too perfect. Someone here [at Toon Zone] made a valid criticism of ‘A Knight of Shadows,’ to the effect that J’onn’s family was just too idyllic to be at all believable, and we took that to heart. Once again, the Internet is your friend! Thus, Van’s a little bit contemptuous of farmer dad, even talks back a bit (‘I know, I know!’) and dad gets ticked off at him over the Krypto / poop incident. Jor-El and Clark even have a testy little exchange (‘Oh, so you’re a scientist now’), hinting at some argument in their past. [in addition], in the first draft, Van entered the story by jumping into bed with his parents, merrily blurting, ‘Happy birthday!’ It’s a subtle thing, I know, but it just didn’t feel ‘honest.’ Being a husband and dad myself, I know it’s not all sunshine and bliss 24/7. Also, notice that there’s no background score throughout the entire first segment of Clark’s dream. We were really tempted to play warm, Copeland-esque ‘Americana’ under it—to establish how happy he was there—but decided to play it ‘straight,’ with just ambient background noise, etc. to immediately immerse the viewer in Clark’s world.

"[We deviated from the original story] in Kal’s farewell scene with his son. In Moore’s original story and Marc’s drafts, Kal says, ‘I was there when you were born,’ and then goes into, ‘…but I don’t think you’re real,’ which, at the last minute, didn’t sound right to me. It was merely a statement of fact—it didn’t sound like he really had been there—so I elaborated on it a bit, having him describe his own experience of it…how it felt to be there. Kal’s description of Van’s ‘beautiful little face’ and ‘tiny fingers,’ etc. is perhaps overly sentimental and somewhat trite, but it is a common reaction from new fathers—trust me on this one—and I think it does convey that he’s deeply immersed in the fantasy, as opposed to it being just a pleasant little fantasy.

“There was some debate about how the Black Mercy actually worked, why Batman was able to escape from it more easily than Superman, etc. Our rationalization was that Superman had been under its spell for a far lengthier time—several days at least, maybe as much as a week—whereas Batman was only its victim for several minutes at most; longer exposure to the plant [creates] a deeper, harder-to-break spell

[SteveJRogers]

Alright, somehow I forgot Dying In The Gutters before Saturday Morning 101:

I was drinking several Blue Moons while listening, sadly I don't think wheat ale has the same effect as mind alterning drugs!

Great trip, ummm pun intended, into Bronze Age wackiness, and yeah I guess it's the closest Superman can get to a horror story without Batman being involved or an Elseworld. There is the Red Glass story from the very early 1990s (I want to say 1990 itself) where Superman is under a halicionic from an ailen and seemingly goes bezerk.

[Guest]

I just want to say personally how proud I am that we managed to get this much Spin Doctors into a podcast.

[dc20willsave]

It's worth pointing out that the voice actors on the New Adventures of Superman animated show are largely the same ones from the Radio Show, not just Bud Collyer. Something I noticed while hearing the soundclips during the Saturday Morning 101 segment.

[Dan]

That's true. They managed to get everyone, right down to the narrator.

[dc20willsave]

And I just noticed you said that later in the segment. I should really listen to the entire segment before saying something. Still awesome.

[dc20willsave]

Mork could time travel. As for the Happy Days spin offs, Happy Days's Chronology ends in the mid 60s though Laverne and Shirley would end its Chronology in 67. Yes, I did that nearly from memory.

[SuaveStar]

Just starting listening, and there's just something about Dan swearing in the episode that's great, like what's being said is making him reach the end of his tether.

On the discussion of "For the man who has everything" I haven't read the comic, so I can't say the JLU episode was a good or bad adaptation, though I would like Bruce Timm's team to re-visit the story for a feature film project, and have the Jor-El thread that was in the comic, as that does sound like a very interesting subplot. Having one wanting to be with his family, and the other rather being dead, than wrong. However, I don't think they'll do it, as he probably feels like he has done his best interpretation of the comic in that JLU episode, and they will likely deal with certain people saying "Why can't they adapt this story! They've already done that one!"

Can I ask one question, and I'll spoiler it just in case:

My favourite moment in the JLU episode was the plant got taken off of Superman and his world had to crumble, before he could go back to the real world, which was a total mindfuck for him, and for Batman, when he had to relive his father dying. Was this created specifically for the cartoon, or was this in the original comic as well, as like I said, that was my favourite moment in the episode. Because what's worse than getting your hearts desire? Getting it, then getting it violently ripped away from you.

So far, it's a great episode, and congratulations to everyone who took part in this massive beast of an episode.

[Dan]

Suave:

In the comic, we see Kal-El's world fade away into smoke. It's less showy than in the JLU episode. Likewise, while we see Thomas Wayne stop the mugger, we don't see what happens when the Mercy gets pulled off of Batman. He does mention, however, that in his dream he got married to (original Earth-1 Batwoman) Kathy Kane and had a daughter. In my opinion, this works better; A), it's Superman's story, not Batman's, so we don't need to see his anguish all over again, and B), Moore assumes you know Batman's story and so doesn't take time out from the actual story to dwell on it.

[SuaveStar]

Suave:

In the comic, we see Kal-El's world fade away into smoke. It's less showy than in the JLU episode. Likewise, while we see Thomas Wayne stop the mugger, we don't see what happens when the Mercy gets pulled off of Batman. He does mention, however, that in his dream he got married to (original Earth-1 Batwoman) Kathy Kane and had a daughter. In my opinion, this works better; A), it's Superman's story, not Batman's, so we don't need to see his anguish all over again, and B), Moore assumes you know Batman's story and so doesn't take time out from the actual story to dwell on it.

Didn't think of that, good point. That actually sounds pretty damn awesome.

[Gareth]

Finally finishing this episode, It was really fantastic.

If it hasn't been resolved already, there are several different cuts of this film that have aired on television I'm not sure how many have been released on DVD however. I know there's a 3+ hour cut of this film floating around somewhere.

I'm guessing this review will spawn several Man of Steel Discussions. I am a huge fan of Superman II, I like it just as much if not more than Superman 78. Superman III I found to be a "so bad it's good flick" until the climax which really pissed me off. Superman IV will probably be the worst thing you three have reviewed (including B&R).

I can't wait for those reviews and once again congratulations on 500 fantastic episodes.

[dc20willsave]

That does bring a good question. If the three of you review Superman 2, are you doing the theatrical cut or the Richard Donner cut?

[slothian]

I think we'd have to do both - I'm not entirely sure how we'd do it, but the Donner cut is too prominent to ignore.

[Gareth]

I was thinking you could do it like Mike and James reviewed Return of the Joker. Review the original, but also mention and discuss the Richard Donner cut, but I think the main review should focus on the original 1980 Superman II. But ultimately it's your guys' choice.

[dc20willsave]

Here's the thing though. With Return of the Joker, most of the stuff was exactly the same with a few cuts. The Richard Donner cut of Superman II has completely different scenes and its a film that feels rather different than the original, more serious.

[Gareth]

Well to be honest I've never seen the Richard Donner cut. But I still think most of the attention needs to go to the '80 version as it was the version everyone grew up with and the only one we had for 26 years.

Of course there's also the option to make the two separate reviews entirely.

[SuaveStar]

Well to be honest I've never seen the Richard Donner cut. But I still think most of the attention needs to go to the '80 version as it was the version everyone grew up with and the only one we had for 26 years.

Of course there's also the option to make the two separate reviews entirely.

The Donner cut is by far a better film. It feels more like Superman 1.5 than Superman 2, which was the actual plan with the movies. I would recommend you trying to find the Donner cut, just to see the contrast between the two versions of Superman 2.