Damn it, I liked it!


The Master
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Judging from IMDb, a lot of people don't seem to like Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey (or at least not as much as the first movie). I love it. How anyone can not like Evil Bill and Evil Ted is beyond me.

Also fond of Dragon Ball Z, despite much of the anime community regressing to, "OMG I'M TOO GOOD FOR THAT SHIT" when discussing it. It's a fun show to chill out and watch for a few hours (or, approximately the amount of time it takes to get through one fight - I kid, I kid :P).

I'm with D.W. on liking House of 1,000 Corpses, as well.

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Punisher/X-Men 3/Spiderman 3

All three films are almost uniformly panned by my lil' circle of friends but I'll defend the living hell out of 'em.

Bloom County: Greatest comic strip of all time

Zima: My friends hated Zima but I always loved it.....it's a Malt Liquor, much more manly than drinking MGD Lite or some other macro brew......

Evolutionary War: Maybe it's a midwestern thing but any comic geek I speak to in Illinois (home state) seems to hate this crossover. I don't get it, I own every tie in including the Alf Annual......good stuff that.

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Yeah, this was a rough one for me to get behind but here's my logic:

I'm sure everyone here has seen or has heard of these films:

The bootleg Fantastic Four

The Justice League Television movie

David Hasselhoff IS....Nick Fury.....

The Captain America straight to video with an Italian Red Skull

Batman and Robin

The list goes on so I'll digress........

I've seen good comic book movies (Spiderman 2) I've seen poor comic book movies (Spiderman 3) and I've seen 'gouge your eyes out with a plactic fork they're so bad' comic book movies (listed above).

With Spiderman 3 there were DOZENS of problems......for instance the meteor that contained the symbiote......just HAPPENS to fall 10 feet away from Peter and Mary Jane? .....the fuck?

We all know this film's shortcomings......but what about it's strengths?

For instance.....it isn't any of the films I've listed above.

For as much as we all feel that Spiderman 3 fell short I take comfort in the fact it could have been a LOT worse.

In Jr. High I got wind of some of the original scripting ideas for the 'new' spiderman film that was supposed to hit theaters in the summer of 1990 something.......Spiderman battles an 8 tentacled Dr. Octupus to save the world from a weather satellite.

The reason for the 8 tentacles was that the screenwriters didn't think that the average moviegoer would understand that Doc Ock has four tentacles IN ADDITION to his four limbs......so fuck it, give him 8.

I'd rather have a Spiderman musical romantic comedy be released than suffer through Spiderman battling a satellite in orbit over the earth....

For all of our issues with the movie, the script, the dialogue, the characterization, it was still a FUN movie.....I was able to put most of my hesitations aside and enjoy watching this movie....something I wasn't able to do with any of the films listed above.

Plus, I don't think that this is the last film of the franchise........a lot of the complaints I've heard stem from the fact that they feel that it was rushed out.....waaaaaaay too much was jammed into this because Raimi was just like, fuck it, it's my last movie........why not just throw EVERYTHING I want into this?

This may be the last hurrah for Tobey/Kirsten/Raimi for the Webhead but in this day and age where we're seeing dozens of comic properites being made into films it's just a given imho that we'll see another big screen Spidey film.

That being said, this wasn't NEAR what I wanted to see.....and Raimi fucking knows better because he DID make 1 and 2......but....

1) It could have been a lot worse

2) It was fun to watch, a visual feast for eyes even if the script/dialogue/plot was lacking

3) It's not the last Spiderman film.....with the sheer wealth of material to work with another director, another group of performers will get their stab at it and I'm fairly certain they'll be able to breathe new life into the franchise.

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I'd rather have a Spiderman musical romantic comedy be released than suffer through Spiderman battling a satellite in orbit over the earth....

That, I disagree with.

1) It could have been a lot worse

You're right, I suppose there were a few seconds of the film that could have been added to Mary Jane's subplot...and the constipated look Sandman had on his face the entire time could have culminated in an onscreen sandshit.

2) It was fun to watch, a visual feast for eyes even if the script/dialogue/plot was lacking

I only partially agree with this: yes, it was pretty. But for 250 million dollars it goddamn better be pretty. I would still prefer the first two which were just as pretty, only they had stories that weren't slaps in the face.

3) It's not the last Spiderman film.....with the sheer wealth of material to work with another director, another group of performers will get their stab at it and I'm fairly certain they'll be able to breathe new life into the franchise.

This we don't really know. Sure, there probably will be but there's also the good possibility that there won't.

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Oh yeah, there's no gurantee of anything......but with the amount of comic book properties that ARE headed to the theaters it's hard to believe that they wouldn't.....

Let's look at Marvel films since 2000.....well, 98 if we consider Blade.....

Blade

X-Men

Blade II

Spiderman

Daredevil

X-Men II

Hulk

Punisher

Spiderman II

Blade III

Man Thing (Man Thing? What in the blue hell?)

Elektra

Fantastic Four

X-Men III

Ghost Rider

Spiderman III

Fantastic Four II

In the wings we have Iron Man, Hulk II and Punisher II.......

It's a good time to be a comic fan.....a bit over ten years from 98 to 08 (Hulk II and Punisher II tenative release date) and we have 20 movies (MAN Thing?) and a handful of direct to video releases (Avengers/Dr. Strange/Iron Man).

I hope the trend continues......as much as I wish that Spiderman 3 was better it certainly wasn't bad enough to be a franchise killer like Batman and Robin.

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01. So Spider-Man 3 is enjoyable because it could have been worse...? :unsure: Using that reasoning, Superman Returns wasn't bad because it wasn't Howard the Duck. See where I'm going? Enjoy something because "it could have been worse" is faulty logic. That's like saying, "Well, that guy broke my nose, which hurts like a bitch, but at least he didn't castrate me."

02. Special effects don't make a movie. If the script and acting and everything else smells like rotten eggs, pretty visuals don't make it better. Hell, that makes it worse in my mind because it tells me they spent more time developing the "Spider-Man punches through Sandman's chest" scene than they did on the script.

03. Just because the franchise will continue doesn't give them a pass on Spider-Man 3.

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For some unknown reason people tend to hate on Jackie Brown, but I think it's Tarantino's best film.

Jackie Brown is a damn fine movie.

Punisher

All three films are almost uniformly panned by my lil' circle of friends but I'll defend the living hell out of 'em.

As I said earlier in the thread, I liked the Punisher movie.

Zima: My friends hated Zima but I always loved it.....it's a Malt Liquor, much more manly than drinking MGD Lite or some other macro brew......

Zima, huh, so what color's your guy-liner? :P

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Is 'Awesome' a color? :D

Going back to spiderman I figure that it took me coming home from the theater and really thinking about what I saw to realize that, ultimately, it wasn't as awful as I had thought when I just stepped out of the theater......

I had higher expectations for SM 3 then I did for Superman Returns. I tried to insulate myself from teasers/screen shots, etc. so when I saw the film I could be suprised.......

Because Spiderman 1 and 2 were so much better then the other marvel fare (save Xmen 1 and 2) the expectations were much higher......it's not the same as going to see Ghost Rider or Elektra.......Spiderman is the centerpiece to the entire company and for that and because of the level of quality with one and two I expected the same level of quality for 3.

We didn't get it. :shakehead:

When I got home and had a chance to really think about the film and try to piece together what exactly bothered me about it I found that no matter what horrible decisions they had made in the film I still found it enjoyable......the parts that bothered me weren't enough for me to dislike this film.

It's the same with Fantastic Four. They botched Doom, Reed wasn't aloof enough, Sue wasn't matronly enough.....but when you compare those downsides (which there were quite a bit) and compared it to what was GREAT about the FF movie (spot on Torch/Thing banter, the Thing and Torch in general, Stan Lee as Willie Lumpkin) it made the movie tolerable and as a result I enjoyed it despite it's shortcomings.

I don't know if you guys were bothered by this as much as I was but remember when you first saw that full size image of Routh as Superman for Superman Returns.........what was the first thing that popped into your head?

For me it was 'Why is there an S shield on his buckle?' That belt buckle bugged the living shit out of me for the entire movie.....but it wasn't enough to stop me from digging Superman Returns.

There was a lot more working against SM 3 but I don't consider it enough to stop me from enjoying the movie......it's just not nearly as good as SM 1 and two and Xmen 1 and 2.

I guess my logic is kind of strange when it comes to SM 3 but you have to figure this:

1) Higher Expectations for SM 3 compared to other comic film properties

2) When expectations are dashed you compare it to other comic book properties

It's not enjoyable BECAUSE it could have been worse......it's just that when I got over my disapointment in the film I took a look at it objectively and found it to be enjoyable and still better than a lot of the comic book films I've subjected myself to.

For instance Joel Schumacher could have gotten his mitts on this and we could have seen Spider Nipples.......

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01. So Spider-Man 3 is enjoyable because it could have been worse...? :unsure: Using that reasoning, Superman Returns wasn't bad because it wasn't Howard the Duck. See where I'm going? Enjoy something because "it could have been worse" is faulty logic. That's like saying, "Well, that guy broke my nose, which hurts like a bitch, but at least he didn't castrate me."

02. Special effects don't make a movie. If the script and acting and everything else smells like rotten eggs, pretty visuals don't make it better. Hell, that makes it worse in my mind because it tells me they spent more time developing the "Spider-Man punches through Sandman's chest" scene than they did on the script.

03. Just because the franchise will continue doesn't give them a pass on Spider-Man 3.

Agreed with all of these.

Dude, if you want to defend Spider-Man 3 (see Episode 99 of E-2.net - the show, although I've since revised my score), you need to drop in the big selling points:

- Bruce Campbell's cameo: better than either of the previous two, and that is definitely the one thing that the 3rd film can trumpet, if only minorly as it's hardly integral to the story.

- Peter vs Harry - both fights were cool, be it the balls out action of the first fight about 5/10 minutes into the film, or their tussle in the Osbourne penthouse. Which ties into....

- Douchebag Peter!! I'm sorry, Tobey Maguire in an all-black suit with a different hair-do and dancing like an idiot isn't Emo, it's HILARIOUS!! And after all the shit MJ puts him through, his "FU, bitch" dancing in front of her with Gwen was pretty damn cool.

- The aforementioned graphics. True, as Des said, for a $250 million budget, you'd expect that, but if the Sandman's graphics had been anything like that of Reed Richard's stretching (or less impressive than the sand effects in the Brendan Fraser "Mummy" films) then the criticism would have been much worse.

- Topher Grace as Eddie Brock. So his background has been reinterpreted slightly - Grace still makes his character laughably odious so that when he eventually becomes attached to the symbiote, you understand the attraction to becoming Venom.

- Gwen Stacy. Gorgeous and a good get-out love interest if Dunst does leave the series (always a plus!)

- Amnesiac Harry. Him just painting a picture halfway through the film had me rolling. Then he regained his memory and went emo.

Now, there's a long list of flaws as well and if it weren't 3am with one day of my weekend left, I'd go over them for longer. The key thing I'd say is that the films flaws were two-fold. That the script was overly complicated and packed, which was a mistake on the producers and Raimi's side - Venom didn't need to be in action in the finale with the amount of money this franchise is raking in, but try telling producers that. The other is that you can't get invested in the three core characters if you make all three of them unlikeable to different degrees. If MJ was kept sympathetic (as Paker was dealing with the symbiote and Harry was part Goblin insane) then the drama that would really help drive the still somewhat convoluted script along at a more acceptable pace.

I still think Spider-Man 3 is a better film than something like Ghost Rider or the Fantastic Four films, despite its problems, but people get extra down on the film because it's such a comedown from Spidey 2, which is regarded as one of the greatest CBMs ever.

On topic: I caught a lot of flack whilst in Canada for enjoying a Comedy Network show called Beat the Geeks. Twas very cool, but try telling skiiers that!

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