prez Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Whether it makes sense or not though I think we can all agree Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew showing up at the end was awesome. Really? Honestly? You didn't think that was the most random thing that could've ever happened? I'm kinda with Stavros on this one. I'm just not getting how this was a good series. At all. I guess I obviously have different taste than you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I like Morrison and all, but parts of this just felt like, "Look how much comic history I know." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuaveStar Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I am getting the final issue tomorrow, and still haven't got half of what is going on. Sometimes it's awesome being the idiot boy here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted January 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 In the next week or so I'll be reading the whole thing in one chunk with Submit/Resist, Superman Beyond, Requiem and Secret Files. I may not come back from this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Whether it makes sense or not though I think we can all agree Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew showing up at the end was awesome. Really? Honestly? You didn't think that was the most random thing that could've ever happened? I'm kinda with Stavros on this one. I'm just not getting how this was a good series. At all. I guess I obviously have different taste than you guys. How is it random when there was a tie in issue with those characters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koete Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 From Chris' Invincible Super-Blog: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prez Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Whether it makes sense or not though I think we can all agree Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew showing up at the end was awesome. Really? Honestly? You didn't think that was the most random thing that could've ever happened? I'm kinda with Stavros on this one. I'm just not getting how this was a good series. At all. I guess I obviously have different taste than you guys. How is it random when there was a tie in issue with those characters? Yeah, but what if you didn't read that issue? I didn't and I thought it was insane to have them there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew exist in a different plane of reality in the DCU and appear at a time where tons of other characters from other realities are as well. Hardly random. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Whether it makes sense or not though I think we can all agree Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew showing up at the end was awesome. Really? Honestly? You didn't think that was the most random thing that could've ever happened? I'm kinda with Stavros on this one. I'm just not getting how this was a good series. At all. I guess I obviously have different taste than you guys. How is it random when there was a tie in issue with those characters? Yeah, but what if you didn't read that issue? I didn't and I thought it was insane to have them there. The nature of the big comic book event is that you really do have to read at least some of the tie ins. It is just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Right, if you didn't understand how all this fitted together download the Comic Geek Speek Issue 7 Synopsis. It also sums up Superman Beyond as well. Its an excellent account of the whole deal and pieces together the story in a way that has been almost completly absent from the actual issues. I think I get what the biggest problem with all this is. They should have released it in chronological order. This is the correct reading order- * Final Crisis #1-3 * Superman Beyond #1-2 * "Submit" * Final Crisis #4–5 * Batman #682–683 * Legion of Three Worlds #1-5 (my interpretation) * Final Crisis #6–7 What they should have done is make this VERY CLEAR FROM THE START. The fact that Superman is pretty much THE main character for most of this deal if Legion is included mean that its vital to be able to follow his arc, from the start of the Crisis, to Superman Beyond, to Legion of Three Worlds to the last two issues of the main series. The timing is so screwed up here, Legion #5 should have been out by the time Superman comes back in Final Crisis 6. Really what this means is that the bigger story I wanted to make this work, its here, its just been torns up into little bits and scattered randomly throughout these books. Its like trying to assemble an IKEA particle accelerator without instructions. Practically all the actual Crisis of this event is in Superman Beyond and the last issue of the main series, but they released it all together so events were over before they'd even been published. The problem is that any casual fan has precisely ZERO CHANCE of understanding how this all fits together and what it means. This is the single LEAST marketable big event in comics history. Secret Invasion isn't perfect but I didn't need to know the entire history of the Marvel Universe and 37 alternate ones to understand it. Heroes vs Aliens! Its fucking simple, that's why they ran mainstream media spots to highlight it! Final Crisis does NOTHING to grow the industry, in fact it dramatically affects the affection that many neophyte DC fans may have had for the product. "Oh look, a DC comic, I like the films so maybe I'll like this" picks up the book "I can't understand a single bit of what is going on here" puts comic down. Maybe DC should consider that a more grounded story that average fans can understand would be significantly more open, marketable and successful, and just maybe they wouldn't be being outsold by Marvel's rival event 2-1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Right. Heroes punching aliens in a jungle. Glad I spent my 34 bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prez Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 The problem is that any casual fan has precisely ZERO CHANCE of understanding how this all fits together and what it means. This is the single LEAST marketable big event in comics history. Secret Invasion isn't perfect but I didn't need to know the entire history of the Marvel Universe and 37 alternate ones to understand it. Heroes vs Aliens! Its fucking simple, that's why they ran mainstream media spots to highlight it! Final Crisis does NOTHING to grow the industry, in fact it dramatically affects the affection that many neophyte DC fans may have had for the product. "Oh look, a DC comic, I like the films so maybe I'll like this" picks up the book "I can't understand a single bit of what is going on here" puts comic down. THANK YOU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 That's the thing though. Events aren't always done for the casual fan. This is a story that you are overblowing as being non-sensical that has a beginning a middle and an end with richer consequences for the mega fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 That's the thing though. Events aren't always done for the casual fan. This is a story that you are overblowing as being non-sensical that has a beginning a middle and an end with richer consequences for the mega fan. So DC is writing comics for fun and not for profit? No wonder Marvel is kicking their ass. Like I said, Secret Invasion wasn't perfect. It was brilliantly built and poorly executed. Final Crisis is a much better story if you can get your head around it (for which you will need to be on the internet or listening to podcasts or whatever). It is also an abject failure if its object was to a: draw in new fans or b: be a genuine epic event. I'm betting most DC books completely ignore the events of this story, and that's a major problem in the way DC markets itself. They blew the death of Batman on a story that no new fan could comprehend. Marvel made more money out of the death of Captain America than DC made from the entire of Final Crisis, by tying it into other stories and making it matter throughout their entire line. As mentioned in the CGS synopsis, the story deliberately makes less sense as it goes on. It deliberately makes itself less understandable, abandoning events in favor of themes and pandering to only the most hardcore of fans. That's entirely their decision, but its not how you grow a brand and make new readers, and its damaging to the industry as a whole to promote such an insular attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Listening to CGS was your first problem. Other than that, God forbid someone make a story for the fun of it. I also believe the constructions of SI was not set in stone. It was an idea (a great one) that allowed Bendis to take a bunch of loose plot threads and try to tie them up. Which he failed miserably at because it wasn't planned out. But since this is the FC thread: I had no need to get on the internet or listen to podcasts to understand the story at all. And I didn't. It was still probably my favorite story of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuaveStar Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'm going to stay out of this Stavros VS Dread feud, as it seems like it could be fun to observe the two sides of the story. I'm going to listen to the comic geek speak podcast and use them as a companion while reading final crisis as it seems to be the only way i can truly get more of what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Only listen to CGS if you want to hear a bunch of self-important windbags tell you they know everything about comics and that only their opinion matters. If you don't get anything out of the story on your own then you're not going to like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malpractice Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Only listen to CGS if you want to hear a bunch of self-important windbags tell you they know everything about comics and that only their opinion matters. Wow, didn't know there was a feud going on. I finally got around to reading the final issue last night and totally loved it. I don't see what was so hard to understand and the hate for this comic is way overblown (It's exaggrating to Bush-hate level proportions). Morrison tried something different, and it went over a lot of people's heads but that still dosen't mean it was bad or that Morrison did a bad job. The first problem is I keep hearing "Oh well it wasn't really a Crisis, they should of called it something else" or "This isn't what a big event is supposed to be like", etc, etc. and frankly those are stupid reasons to condemn a story. The whole point of this story was to destroy the "big event" mentality that comics have been stuck in for decades now, so why should this story read like COIE or Infinite Crisis Pt. 2 when it's trying to break a chain? If as a story you read this and just didn't like it, that's fine but attacking people who did like it and attacking the writer is just plain childish and ridiculous. Not to mention that this is Morrison were talking about, why would you think he is going to write some straightfoward continuity patch thing anyway. Blame marketing and editorial if you want for promising something that you didn't get, but don't blame the story for being what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missy Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 For the record, there is not an Earth-2.net / CGS feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 No, there is not. Just because I can't stand a podcast doesn't mean there's a feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malpractice Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 For the record, there is not an Earth-2.net / CGS feud. good to know. Just because I can't stand a podcast doesn't mean there's a feud. I was just kind of shocked by that statement. CGS never came off as some sort of didactic exercise in comic podcasting to me, it has always been a pretty open discussion between the various members of the show and the audience. If you don't like the discussion that's fine but the namecalling is a bit much, i don't agree with you all that often but i don't go on other boards and say "that Des Reddick is a fucking prick who hates everything". Not to mention i consider many of the hosts of the show to be good friends of mine so maybe i am biased. But I don't want to derail the thread anymore so let's get back on topic Final Crisis is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I did hear Des mention something about "Shivving the fuck out of him if I see him near my wife again." ... But who can blame him, really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I'm not giving the CGS thing any more attention than it deserves, but a PM has been sent. All is sunny in Western Canada...except for the clouds. I don't hate everything. I just hate things that suck. We're in this thread agreeing on FC. But seriously, stay away from my wife or I'll shiv you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 But seriously, stay away from my wife or I'll shiv you. I honestly didn't know she was yours until after, I swear. I'm not saying I wouldn't have anyway, I just thought you should know all the facts beforehand. Also she didn't like Final Crisis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 You're a dead man. I know people in Bristol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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