Buffy the Vampire Slayer


JackFetch

Recommended Posts

Yeah, um... might not wanna get into discussions about Buffy (or ANY Whedon project) with NightAngle. He's... how shall I say it...

Very opinionated.

How very untrue. I enjoyed Angel.

You could just, y'know, say that. With words. I mean, I don't see why you would think that, because I agree with Hanners. Angel leaving did two things: Gave us an AWESOME spinoff, and let Buffy have a real life. She got to be with Riley and Spike, both relationships adding to her character growth.

1. What did you think was meant by LOL

2. Giving us an awesome spinoff has nothing to do with Buffy

3. And both relationships were among the worst in the history of television Riley cause it was beyond boring and Spike because it was beyond disgusting and despicable to women.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 85
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Yeah, um... might not wanna get into discussions about Buffy (or ANY Whedon project) with NightAngle. He's... how shall I say it...

Very opinionated.

How very untrue. I enjoyed Angel.

You could just, y'know, say that. With words. I mean, I don't see why you would think that, because I agree with Hanners. Angel leaving did two things: Gave us an AWESOME spinoff, and let Buffy have a real life. She got to be with Riley and Spike, both relationships adding to her character growth.

1. What did you think was meant by LOL

2. Giving us an awesome spinoff has nothing to do with Buffy

3. And both relationships were among the worst in the history of television Riley cause it was beyond boring and Spike because it was beyond disgusting and despicable to women.

Riley was a great relationship for Buffy, because he was an attempt at normal that proved to be far, far better than that. I still can't believe they didn't end up together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, um... might not wanna get into discussions about Buffy (or ANY Whedon project) with NightAngle. He's... how shall I say it...

Very opinionated.

How very untrue. I enjoyed Angel.

Well, this should be fun for all sorts of reasons.

You could just, y'know, say that. With words. I mean, I don't see why you would think that, because I agree with Hanners. Angel leaving did two things: Gave us an AWESOME spinoff, and let Buffy have a real life. She got to be with Riley and Spike, both relationships adding to her character growth.

1. What did you think was meant by LOL

2. Giving us an awesome spinoff has nothing to do with Buffy

3. And both relationships were among the worst in the history of television Riley cause it was beyond boring and Spike because it was beyond disgusting and despicable to women.

Hanners is a cute nickname, I approve. :P

1. I couldn't tell, because LOL isn't an answer. It's a statement, and could be directed at any number of things.

2. Yes, it did, because if they were joined at the hip, we couldn't have had the show in the first place.

3. Sometimes what a girl needs is safe and boring. Not every paramour can turn into an evil soulless vamp just because you had sex with him. And uhm, what? Just... what?

I've a fondness for Buffy/Spike, but I highly doubt that she'll end up permanently with anyone we've seen introduced either in the show or in the extended comics universe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What it means is that I can't get how the hell you think Angel/Buffy wasn't just as disgusting (and yes, Spike/Buffy had some pretty bad moments, especially in s5 and with Seeing Red, but the majority of their fairly unhealthy relationship was consensual) according to your logic, though that does seem to be bent somewhat by blind shipping, especially due to the fact that Buffy was underage/far more naive/mainpulable/innocent for the whole of their relationship. Unhealthy =/= despicable/degrading.

Also, Buffy was the one making the choices in the Spike relationship, especially the violent sex ones (and because this is a huge pet peeve of mine, yes, it is okay for women to make the choice for a relationship to be based on sex, just because the relationship may be derived solely from sex does not automatically make it degrading!), which is a lot more than you can say for anything she had with Angel.

EDIT: The more that I think about it, the more that I realize that for me, Angel/Buffy comes off as a proto-Edward/Bella relationship. It's certainly not as ridiculously unhealthy as the latter, but it definitely laid the groundwork for that sort of thing to happen in the vampire genre.

And being in a relationship with a high schooler is WAY different than being in a relationship with, you know, someone in college/an adult.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What it means is that I can't get how the hell you think Angel/Buffy wasn't just as disgusting

Oh this should be fun right off the bat we hit a homer. Well lets see, uhhhhhh Angel never attempted to rape Buffy. So first off points for him there. Second Angel never fucked Buffy in Bronze and telling her to watch her friends dance. Third I'm not even sure how you could not describe sex by a dumpster to be anything but disgusting.

(and yes, Spike/Buffy had some pretty bad moments, especially in s5 and with Seeing Red, but the majorityof their fairly unhealthy relationship was consensual)

OH well if the majorityof the relationship was consensual then its all good.

according to your logic, though that does seem to be bent somewhat by blind shipping, especially due to the fact that Buffy was underage/far more naive/mainpulable/innocent for the whole of their relationship. Unhealthy =/= despicable/degrading.

First of all your little jab about me being a shipper is cute and everything but completely wrong. I think Angel should always be alone. I didn't ship Buffy/Angel nor did I ship any relationship on either show. Second yes Buffy was indeed underage................ I'm not sure what the point is of that but yes factually speaking yes you are correct she was in fact underage. Congrats. Thirdly the reason I said the Buffy/Spike relationship was despicable and disgusting to women is because it was. When you have a show that is all about female empowerment and feminism and for 6 years you state proudly that your the show where the female fights back and all this and then you have your main female lead have to have sex with an evil demon just so she can "feel something" and then act like a battered housewife. THAT is disgusting and despicable to women.

Also, Buffy was the one making the choices in the Spike relationship, especially the violent sex ones (and because this is a huge pet peeve of mine, yes, it is okay for women to make the choice for a relationship to be based on sex, just because the relationship may be derived solely from sex does not automatically make it degrading!), which is a lot more than you can say for anything she had with Angel.

Almost right. Spike was the one who brought about the majority of the public sexcapades. Buffy did choose to end the relationship though so maybe that's what you meant. Then you proceeded to go off on a tangent which has nothing to do with this conversation of Buffy so I'll ignore it and move on. I have no idea what you are comparing to her relationship with Angel, the dumpster sex? or the abandoned building sex? "Hey where's are heroine of the series? Oh she's out in the alley next to the dumpster having emotionless sex". Real role model for Feminism

The more that I think about it, the more that I realize that for me, Angel/Buffy comes off as a proto-Edward/Bella relationship. It's certainly not as ridiculously unhealthy as the latter, but it definitely laid the groundwork for that sort of thing to happen in the vampire genre.

Ok? It comes off as it, but it isn't? So.............. great

And being in a relationship with a high schooler is WAY different than being in a relationship with, you know, someone in college/an adult.

Again you keep going back to the "Buffy was underage! Oh the horror!" argument which seems to be your only argument here. And yes I agree she was in fact underage. Your statement is correct. She also killing vampires as an underage girl and saving the world also as an underage girl. Demons and creatures also wanted to kill her as an underage girl. So perhaps if I was so inclined I could argue Buffy was way more mature than her age let on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hah, I'll take it. :P

Also, cause I can be coherent now, the only thing that Edward/Bella has that Buffy/Angel doesn't is the suicidal codependency, though it almost gets there. Everything else, though? The zomg forbidden love, the it's eternal twu wuv, the controlling nature of the vamp in the relationship, the stalking, the I can't put you in danger anymore but I will anyways cause I loooooove you, it's all there. All Twilight needed to do was idealize the vamp and make him out and out abusive rather than subtly so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eh.

Angel/Buffy was pretty different. Buffy was fully able to protect herself and was able to make her own decisions about the relationship, rather than being a slave to it. Angel's celibacy (after the first Angelus incident) was out of actual necessity, not some bizarre unexplained philosophical thing.

Edward made Bella fall in love with him, then (purposely or not) tortured her emotionally. Angel, for the most part, did everything he could for Buffy's benefit, because he actually loved her, unlike Edward who only wanted Bella because she smelled like food.

Hell, both Angel and Buffy ended up seeing other people after Angel left for L.A. The defining element of the Twilight "romance" (the mutual obsession) wasn't really there in Buffy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my question, though: What director wants to be involved in a reboot of their own franchise, especially when they have successful spinoffs of said franchise going and other good projects to work on? (You writer types, feel free to answer this too.)

Also, this may just be me, but actress-turned-screenwriter doesn't sound that encouraging to me. Best of luck to her, though, the militant Whedons are still gonna be giving her a lot of flack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my question, though: What director wants to be involved in a reboot of their own franchise, especially when they have successful spinoffs of said franchise going and other good projects to work on? (You writer types, feel free to answer this too.)

The thing is that Whedon has an extreme tendency to get VERY, VERY attached to his properties, sometimes to the point where he can't see when they're failing. He couldn't tell when the main plots in Buffy seasons 4-7 weren't working, and he didn't think ahead with Angel to actually give it a decent finale, despite the low ratings. He goes down with his sinking ships. He holds onto his self-proclaimed artistic integrity, sometimes when it doesn't even make sense.

There've been other writers in the past that have happily dealt with reboots or re-imaginings of their franchises, especially in the area of superhero stories (which is basically what Buffy is, to an extent). And hey, it's not hard to imagine that you could still write a great Buffy movie that has all the same themes, depth, and quippy writing that defined the TV series. But that's not what Joss wants to do; apparently he wants to stick to his original continuity.

I don't really fault him for that, but I don't praise him for his integrity, either. Middle of the road on this one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my question, though: What director wants to be involved in a reboot of their own franchise, especially when they have successful spinoffs of said franchise going and other good projects to work on? (You writer types, feel free to answer this too.)

The thing is that Whedon has an extreme tendency to get VERY, VERY attached to his properties, sometimes to the point where he can't see when they're failing. He couldn't tell when the main plots in Buffy seasons 4-7 weren't working, and he didn't think ahead with Angel to actually give it a decent finale, despite the low ratings. He goes down with his sinking ships. He holds onto his self-proclaimed artistic integrity, sometimes when it doesn't even make sense.

Again, they were failing in your opinion. Yes ratings-wise season 2 was the best, with a period of around 6 episodes where the rating was between a 4 and a 5, but outside of that peak Buffy's rating remained consistently between a 3 and a 4.5 for first run episodes, regardless of the season. This is not indicative of failure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I loved the ending of Angel. This was not a happy ending show. This was a darker show from it's beginning and the prophecy Angel is given makes it sound near impossible as it is. It's only appropriate that it ended with Angel and his allies about to make a suicide run. That and I love that last line.

Also, while it has had some misteps, I have loved Season 8 so far. The arc with Faith and Giles is some great writing and the story has made sure this isn't everything is better in the Slayer army. The world is not perfect after you stop the apocalypse and it's only natural that the military would view an army of super-powered humans as a threat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.