What the hell is going on with Green Arrow?

[KnightWing]

Hmm. That's too bad. I really liked BN Barry. I might have to start skipping future Flash stories, then.

[Dread]

It isn't compassion. Flash is a Blue Lantern. That's hope.

[KnightWing]

It isn't compassion. Flash is a Blue Lantern. That's hope.

Oh yeah. I got them confused because Barry was always the one that found ways to connect with others.

So... HA! There IS hope for Barry! (pun totally not intended!)

[Dread]

All I'm sayin' is: sometimes inspiring hope in others means lying to them.

[KnightWing]

Saint Walker disagrees.

But back on topic...

If they're going to let GA break the no-kill rule, what does that mean? Is he supposed to be like the Punisher of DC now?

[SuaveStar]

If they're going to let GA break the no-kill rule, what does that mean? Is he supposed to be like the Punisher of DC now?

Oh sweet jesus, I hope not. Where is Connor in all of this?

[Stavros]

If they're going to let GA break the no-kill rule, what does that mean? Is he supposed to be like the Punisher of DC now?

He's already a zombie, so they have that in common.

[Tom BITD]

Saint Walker disagrees.

But back on topic...

If they're going to let GA break the no-kill rule, what does that mean? Is he supposed to be like the Punisher of DC now?

The weird thing is, of course, that...

1) As it's been pointed out before, Ollie has killed before during the Longbow Hunters/Mike Grell era, the first time he used regular arrows exclusively--and he got through that 'okay', and

2) The DC Universe already has/had a Punisher in the second iteration of The Vigilante, the Adrian Chase character.

What it means, yet again, is that this is another example of the present DCU's belief that super-heroes have to be 'edgy' and 'scary' and 'conflicted'.

Of course, what saddens me more is the implication that Speedy is going to be doing the Rose Wilson bit and following her mentor into the darkness--thus taking a character that was all about accepting tragic circumstances and rising above them and turning her into just another conflicted character. Just more proof of the DiDio fatwa against the Teen Titans, I guess.

[Dread]

First of all, the very introduction of the Rose Wilson character began the downfall of the Teen Titans anyway. Anytime she was around, the book stunk like hell.

I don't see how this is some sort of vendetta against the TT? DiDio wants to sell books. It's something he does well. Sometimes it's done really well, <cough> Geoff Johns! <cough> and sometimes not <cough> James Robinson! <cough>

IN fact, if anything, the TT are getting a much larger spotlight now. Dick is Batman; Cyborg, Starfire and Donna are JLAers; Tim is a newer hero with a mission and his own book again; the team's Blackest Night crossover was given the most thought and care of all of them. Pretty good time to be a TT fan as long as you aren't reading the core book as far as I'm concerned.

[Stavros]

Didio had a vendetta against Teen Titans when he killed off Kid Flash and Superboy all at once, but that might have just been a deal where he wanted to kill everyone Tim Drake ever touched.

Didio's real vendetta is against the JLI. 80% of those guys are on ice these days. That is to say that 70% are dead and Guy is literally ON her.

[Missy]

Didio had a vendetta against Teen Titans when he killed off Kid Flash and Superboy all at once, but that might have just been a deal where he wanted to kill everyone Tim Drake ever touched.

It's been long speculated that Kon-El's death had to do with the Superboy lawsuit. And killing off Bart Allen was, I'm guessing, DC's way of erasing that terrible Flash reboot from our minds.

Didio's real vendetta is against the JLI. 80% of those guys are on ice these days. That is to say that 70% are dead and Guy is literally ON her.

[KnightWing]

I like Rose in Teen Titans. She's the only thing in the post-Johns era of this Titans volume that I like.

(If it were me, I'd get Conner, Cassie, Tim and Bart back together and give them their own separate book. "Not-as-Young Justice"?)

Here's the thing about GA killing:

It doesn't matter if it was justified, or if he's done it before. The fact that he killed someone (when he didn't necessarily need to) is enough to deny him membership in the JLA. So where does that leave him? He'll be the "outlaw" now?

[Stavros]

I like Rose in Teen Titans. She's the only thing in the post-Johns era of this Titans volume that I like.

(If it were me, I'd get Conner, Cassie, Tim and Bart back together and give them their own separate book. "Not-as-Young Justice"?)

Here's the thing about GA killing:

It doesn't matter if it was justified, or if he's done it before. The fact that he killed someone (when he didn't necessarily need to) is enough to deny him membership in the JLA. So where does that leave him? He'll be the "outlaw" now?

He didn't NEED to do it last time either. He just made a habit of it.

DC's being wildly inconsistent with their rules around this stuff. Heck, half the Green Lantern Corps have killed people now.

[KnightWing]

DC's being wildly inconsistent with their rules around this stuff. Heck, half the Green Lantern Corps have killed people now.

Well, they're a pseudo-military force, so that makes a bit of sense. And if I remember correctly, they were only allowed to kill Sinestro Corps members anyway.

[Stavros]

DC's being wildly inconsistent with their rules around this stuff. Heck, half the Green Lantern Corps have killed people now.

Well, they're a pseudo-military force, so that makes a bit of sense. And if I remember correctly, they were only allowed to kill Sinestro Corps members anyway.

Nah, they can kill anyone if the circumstances permit.

I just think that destroying a city counts as a circumstance under which a direct response is appropriate. He might do it again, he might have the ability to do it right then. That's why Wonder Woman got off after killing Max Lord.

[KnightWing]

That's why Wonder Woman got off after killing Max Lord.

And because Psycho-Pirate had been manipulating her anyway.

[Tom BITD]

First of all, the very introduction of the Rose Wilson character began the downfall of the Teen Titans anyway. Anytime she was around, the book stunk like hell.

Oh, the book stunk like Hell before Rose was ported in from the ill-advised Deathstroke The Hunter...we are talking about the middle of a stretch of the book where Marv Wolfman admits he was burned out, that his editor pretty much muscled him into most of the plots (including the addition of Rose) and that he hated that editor so much he won't even evoke his name again.

And I've always liked Rose. I didn't care for the 'I'm tearing my eye out to be like daddy' thing, but I did like where Johns ultimately took the character.

I don't see how this is some sort of vendetta against the TT? DiDio wants to sell books. It's something he does well. Sometimes it's done really well, <cough> Geoff Johns! <cough> and sometimes not <cough> James Robinson! <cough>

Well, let's see....since Johns left TITANS--something he's hinted was not his decision...we've seen the book's writer change at least four times, something akin to a dozen (I'm trying to recall from memory, so my actual sum might not be accurate) Titans die--including a handful who seemingly joined just so they could die, a roster that has changed on a pretty much quarterly basis, a number of horrifically graphic scenes of torture, a team that is more concerned with arguing with each other and breaking up than actually, you know, being a team, and a pet dog tearing the face off of one supporting character after eating another. And now that we've got a writer who looks like she's going to stick around...well, she's not very good and seems so in love with her pet concept of 'The Wyld' that she's pushing everything else out of the way.

More importantly...we've seen the sales on the book plumment close to cancellation levels, as more and more people have been leaving the title. As I've said..it's like DiDio is actively trying to kill the title and all the characters associated with same.

IN fact, if anything, the TT are getting a much larger spotlight now. Dick is Batman;

Thus removing him from the TITANS family of books....

Cyborg, Starfire and Donna are JLAers;

Thus removing all of them from the TITANS family of books--and trapping them in a series that, God Help Me, may be even worse written than TT is now....

Tim is a newer hero with a mission and his own book again;

This removing Tim from the book...leaving us with a group of secondary characters like Aquagirl, Blue Beetle (although I wonder if he's going to be gone to play his part in the book about the tattered remnants of that OTHER super-team DiDio has a fatwa against, JLI), Static and the like.

You can't say that removing so many of the characters who have reader loyalty from a book constitutes throwing a spotlight upon it.

the team's Blackest Night crossover was given the most thought and care of all of them. Pretty good time to be a TT fan as long as you aren't reading the core book as far as I'm concerned.

Des, I really don't know how to respond to that last statement--isn't the whole point of doing a tie-in like BLACKEST NIGHT:TITANS (which was written by J.T. Krul, who did an amazing job on the mini and the two TT tie-in issues, and should be the writer on TITANS and not doing Didio's will on the GREEN ARROW franchise) is to get people to read the core book?

DiDio knows that TT, like JLI, makes money. But I suspect he really hates these properties because they're supposed to have moments of brightness and light...so he does everything he can to undermine them while exploiting their name values.

[prez]

Did anyone read the "Rise and Fall" books? Scanning through a few, and then reading the latest (last?) issue of Green Arrow, I feel like someone fucking hates me. Or I hate me for reading that.

Just to get things straight, Green Arrow killed a mass murderer who promised - FUCKING PROMISED - to do it again. When the heroes found out about it, not one single person stood up for him, including the woman who has loved him basically forever. His sidekick took his side and was apparently consumed with fiery bloodlust (We know this because her eyes were drawn with fire in them), causing him to turn himself in. He is unmasked by the crooked police chief in the most anticlimactic way possible. No one really seems surprised by his identity, nor do they really care about how many times he saved their lives.

His wife leaves him after somehow coming to the conclusion that him keeping his murder of Prometheus a secret was Ollie's way of saying he hates being in a relationship or some crazy shit.

THE ENTIRE JUSTICE LEAGUE attends Ollie's trial in their civilian identities - including Wonder Woman, who lest we forget did the exact same fucking thing and is still judging him - and Dick Grayson - who is famous as the "son" of one of the richest men in the world. Also, Superman comes and Ollie interrupts the destruction of his life to whisper to Superman that he could've prevented the whole thing from happening. The jury acquits Green Arrow of murder - let's remember that there was no investigation except by heroes and that Prometheus was murdered in a secret hideout who knows how far away, so Star City didn't have jurisdiction in any way, shape or form. The judge, after stating that he should overturn the verdict, then "exiles" Oliver Queen from Star City. He's "exiled"? What is this, the Middle Ages?

Hal Jordan is the only hero who speaks to Queen, who just casually disappears into an alley, escaping everyone's notice. As he leaves, we pan out to see the city, which still has a huge pile of rubble in a star shape. So, Star City doesn't even clean up its rubble, but forces through a trial of the man who stopped their destruction? Right.

Fuck James Robinson right in his hack ass.

[SuaveStar]

Green Arrow is getting rebooted.

[Missy]

Did anyone read the "Rise and Fall" books? Scanning through a few, and then reading the latest (last?) issue of Green Arrow, I feel like someone fucking hates me. Or I hate me for reading that.

Just to get things straight, Green Arrow killed a mass murderer who promised - FUCKING PROMISED - to do it again. When the heroes found out about it, not one single person stood up for him, including the woman who has loved him basically forever. His sidekick took his side and was apparently consumed with fiery bloodlust (We know this because her eyes were drawn with fire in them), causing him to turn himself in. He is unmasked by the crooked police chief in the most anticlimactic way possible. No one really seems surprised by his identity, nor do they really care about how many times he saved their lives.

His wife leaves him after somehow coming to the conclusion that him keeping his murder of Prometheus a secret was Ollie's way of saying he hates being in a relationship or some crazy shit.

THE ENTIRE JUSTICE LEAGUE attends Ollie's trial in their civilian identities - including Wonder Woman, who lest we forget did the exact same fucking thing and is still judging him - and Dick Grayson - who is famous as the "son" of one of the richest men in the world. Also, Superman comes and Ollie interrupts the destruction of his life to whisper to Superman that he could've prevented the whole thing from happening. The jury acquits Green Arrow of murder - let's remember that there was no investigation except by heroes and that Prometheus was murdered in a secret hideout who knows how far away, so Star City didn't have jurisdiction in any way, shape or form. The judge, after stating that he should overturn the verdict, then "exiles" Oliver Queen from Star City. He's "exiled"? What is this, the Middle Ages?

Hal Jordan is the only hero who speaks to Queen, who just casually disappears into an alley, escaping everyone's notice. As he leaves, we pan out to see the city, which still has a huge pile of rubble in a star shape. So, Star City doesn't even clean up its rubble, but forces through a trial of the man who stopped their destruction? Right.

Fuck James Robinson right in his hack ass.

Wow!

[SuaveStar]

I have to say, that issue of Green Arrow was written by JT Krul, not Robinson, though yeah, it sounds shite.

[prez]

You're right, it was Krul. Still, Robinson started all this shit.

Sorry, I know I went off. But this is one of my favorite characters that has just been imploded!

[prez]

Did anyone read the "Rise and Fall" books? Scanning through a few, and then reading the latest (last?) issue of Green Arrow, I feel like someone fucking hates me. Or I hate me for reading that.

Just to get things straight, Green Arrow killed a mass murderer who promised - FUCKING PROMISED - to do it again. When the heroes found out about it, not one single person stood up for him, including the woman who has loved him basically forever. His sidekick took his side and was apparently consumed with fiery bloodlust (We know this because her eyes were drawn with fire in them), causing him to turn himself in. He is unmasked by the crooked police chief in the most anticlimactic way possible. No one really seems surprised by his identity, nor do they really care about how many times he saved their lives.

His wife leaves him after somehow coming to the conclusion that him keeping his murder of Prometheus a secret was Ollie's way of saying he hates being in a relationship or some crazy shit.

THE ENTIRE JUSTICE LEAGUE attends Ollie's trial in their civilian identities - including Wonder Woman, who lest we forget did the exact same fucking thing and is still judging him - and Dick Grayson - who is famous as the "son" of one of the richest men in the world. Also, Superman comes and Ollie interrupts the destruction of his life to whisper to Superman that he could've prevented the whole thing from happening. The jury acquits Green Arrow of murder - let's remember that there was no investigation except by heroes and that Prometheus was murdered in a secret hideout who knows how far away, so Star City didn't have jurisdiction in any way, shape or form. The judge, after stating that he should overturn the verdict, then "exiles" Oliver Queen from Star City. He's "exiled"? What is this, the Middle Ages?

Hal Jordan is the only hero who speaks to Queen, who just casually disappears into an alley, escaping everyone's notice. As he leaves, we pan out to see the city, which still has a huge pile of rubble in a star shape. So, Star City doesn't even clean up its rubble, but forces through a trial of the man who stopped their destruction? Right.

Fuck James Robinson right in his hack ass.

Wow!

Wow the plot? Or wow me going nuts?

[SuaveStar]

You're right, it was Krul. Still, Robinson started all this shit.

Sorry, I know I went off. But this is one of my favorite characters that has just been imploded!

I agree, and giving the book a shiny new #1 and putting Green Arrow "Back to basics" is a shit idea for something that should never have been done in the first place. And I think Mike was saying wow for how fucking stupid all that shit that happened in the rise and fall sounds.

[Missy]

The plot. It sounds like ass, frankly. And this is the reason I started the thread, because nothing makes sense. Hell, wasn't the point of Cry for Justice to make the JLA more proactive? So when GA kills someone to stop them from killing millions more people, isn't that a good thing?