The leisurely comic discussion thread

[Guest]

They did something worse. Turned him into Frankencastle.

And I actually liked the supernatural idea. I'm all for grounding the character in reality but honestly, there's nothing realistic about a non-powered man being able to keep it up for that long with so many close calls, no matter how skilled.

[Missy]

Thank goodness. Though Castle dying would almost tie into that story if they wanted to. Almost like (dare I say it and give them another horrible idea that they could run with) they could attempt to make him Marvel's Spawn...banish the thought. I unthink it. I recant. Please god don't let them do that.

They tried that in the 90s, and it bombed horribly.

[A.Logan]

Ugh...that's terrible looking.

The more I give thought to a supernatural angle, I could see it being something that could be an interesting arc if you have him balancing the idea that he could get it done with his training...maybe, or he could give in to that spirit and make it a for sure deal, but with the consequences that may come with that. Losing a bit more control each time, maybe hitting or killing innocents, maybe something else that goes completely counter with Frank's idea of his own war.

[SuaveStar]

Reading 52, I have to ask, is their too much violence in comics, for violence sake?

I just finished the second trade, and although good, I started to get really tired of the extreme violence, it wasn't violence involving Lobo, that I would have expected, hell, it would have been enjoyable, the sequence with the massacre in Metropolis, was horrible to read, and Black Adam ripping a man's hand off and ripping someone else in two, although justified in the story context, it seemed like nearly every issue had extreme violence, and it just got old after a while.

Also, Ambush bug, wouldn't it be awesome to do a Lobo/Ambush Bug/Deadpool crossover?

[dc20willsave]

Reading 52, I have to ask, is their too much violence in comics, for violence sake?

I just finished the second trade, and although good, I started to get really tired of the extreme violence, it wasn't violence involving Lobo, that I would have expected, hell, it would have been enjoyable, the sequence with the massacre in Metropolis, was horrible to read, and Black Adam ripping a man's hand off and ripping someone else in two, although justified in the story context, it seemed like nearly every issue had extreme violence, and it just got old after a while.

To tell you the truth, it's in character with Black Adam so I'll let it slide. Yes, a lot of the other violence is vaguely graphic but so are most action movies. While I may not love that, comics are mostly action and the violence serves the story. It isn't The Boys where half the violence is Garth Ennis getting his rocks off. That said, you're only at the halfway point. The beginning of the New Year's issue is a bit of a killer.

Also, Ambush bug, wouldn't it be awesome to do a Lobo/Ambush Bug/Deadpool crossover?

Subtract Lobo and you're on. First page is Deadpool looking up saying, "Dear God, I'm in a crossover!" and Ambush Bug saying, "Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that I'm finally in a book that will sell?"

[SuaveStar]

See, the Black Adam stuff I didn't mind, cause, like you said, it's his character, but the other stuff was a bit over the top.

Yeah, I can't wait to read volume 3 and 4, 3 will be easy to find, it's 4 I'm worried about.

Subtract Lobo and you're on. First page is Deadpool looking up saying, "Dear God, I'm in another crossover!" and Ambush Bug saying, "Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that I'm finally in a book that will sell?"

Fixed, a little.

Also, it would be fun if they had that and then Deadpool narrating the story, with Bug coming and saying "Dammit, Nicenza promised me the opening! And Giffen said, I'd look good this time!" then Deadpool replying "Don't make me go crisis on your ass!"

[dc20willsave]

Also, it would be fun if they had that and then Deadpool narrating the story, with Bug coming and saying "Dammit, Nicenza promised me the opening! And Giffen said, I'd look good this time!" then Deadpool replying "Don't make me go crisis on your ass!"

Now I'm envisioning something along the lines of World's Funniest. Mr. Mxyzptlk and The Impossible Man should show up together in a panel, try to leave and Ambush and Deadpool stop fighting for a second to say, "Aren't you supposed to be the same person?"

[SuaveStar]

Also, it would be fun if they had that and then Deadpool narrating the story, with Bug coming and saying "Dammit, Nicenza promised me the opening! And Giffen said, I'd look good this time!" then Deadpool replying "Don't make me go crisis on your ass!"

Now I'm envisioning something along the lines of World's Funniest. Mr. Mxyzptlk and The Impossible Man should show up together in a panel, try to leave and Ambush and Deadpool stop fighting for a second to say, "Aren't you supposed to be the same person?"

And Deadpool then saying "Where's Rob when you need him...."

[Guest]

Garth Ennis writes The Boys, not Warren Ellis.

Honestly, it always sort of baffled me that everyone gets so strung up on the whole violence issue. Comics are demographically an adult medium. These are stories about beings with the power to rip planets in half and a lot of people should end up with graphic injuries. Frankly, I was always more insulted when someone without a durability power would get hit by some ultra-baddie and be none the worse for it. If I get in a fight with Darkseid, he should be able to decapitate me in one punch.

[SuaveStar]

See, I love the violence, when it's in context, see, when you have Black Adam rip someone in two, that's fine, as that's his power, but having someone killed every second page, that's just someone sitting at their computer screaming "Look what I'm doing!?"

Also, I'm not saying comics should just be stupid, I love the violence when its used properly, but deaths of random losers every two pages, is just fucked up.

But, contradicting myself, 52 was just a few years after Identity crisis, which set the tone of comics being more adult, so I guess this is just saying this isn't just for children.

But, I would prefer the deaths to be more infrequent and have characters I could give a shit about. Having nobody's die, is just, shit.

Remember when Firestorm died in IC, I didn't know the character that well, but it made the moment, and Deathstroke, seem important. Or when J'ohnn died in FC, that mattered, even though I couldn't care about him.

[Guest]

I support it even more in DC because they really need to thin out their roster. There are way too many E-list characters that serve no purpose other than to dilute the value of superpowers.

[SuaveStar]

I support it even more in DC because they really need to thin out their roster. There are way too many E-list characters that serve no purpose other than to dilute the value of superpowers.

Name some. I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm just wondering who you think is not needed anymore. Also, if the Justice League wasn't a joke right now, would you think it would be better to put the characters into a team like that. One that would sell on the name value and help to help elevate those characters.

[Guest]

I support it even more in DC because they really need to thin out their roster. There are way too many E-list characters that serve no purpose other than to dilute the value of superpowers.

Name some. I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm just wondering who you think is not needed anymore. Also, if the Justice League wasn't a joke right now, would you think it would be better to put the characters into a team like that. One that would sell on the name value and help to help elevate those characters.

We'd be here all day, but I think all of the deaths in 52 and Infinite Crisis, for example, were completely justified. And the Justice League is a joke right now because of those characters. It's not bringing them up, it's bringing the JLA name down.

[dc20willsave]

Garth Ennis writes The Boys, not Warren Ellis.

By bad. Edited.

[Guest]

Garth Ennis writes The Boys, not Warren Ellis.

By bad. Edited.

Easy mistake to make. Both are British and awesome.

[SuaveStar]

I support it even more in DC because they really need to thin out their roster. There are way too many E-list characters that serve no purpose other than to dilute the value of superpowers.

Name some. I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm just wondering who you think is not needed anymore. Also, if the Justice League wasn't a joke right now, would you think it would be better to put the characters into a team like that. One that would sell on the name value and help to help elevate those characters.

We'd be here all day, but I think all of the deaths in 52 and Infinite Crisis, for example, were completely justified.

They were justified, but that doesn't stop them being really fucking graphic. Such as the death of most of the nobodys in Infinity Inc in the early 20's of 52. It looked good, but didn't stop it being crazy.

Anyway, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree Dubs about the violence and how graphic it is.

But, I do prefer it when characters die, who I don't have to go back a few pages in the issue and say "Wait, who was that again?"I prefer it when someone dies it's "Fuck, they just killed J'ohn!"

[Guest]

I support it even more in DC because they really need to thin out their roster. There are way too many E-list characters that serve no purpose other than to dilute the value of superpowers.

Name some. I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm just wondering who you think is not needed anymore. Also, if the Justice League wasn't a joke right now, would you think it would be better to put the characters into a team like that. One that would sell on the name value and help to help elevate those characters.

We'd be here all day, but I think all of the deaths in 52 and Infinite Crisis, for example, were completely justified.

They were justified, but that doesn't stop them being really fucking graphic. Such as the death of most of the nobodys in Infinity Inc in the early 20's of 52. It looked good, but didn't stop it being crazy.

Anyway, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree Dubs about the violence and how graphic it is.

But, I do prefer it when characters die, who I don't have to go back a few pages in the issue and say "Wait, who was that again?"I prefer it when someone dies it's "Fuck, they just killed J'ohn!"

.

Watch the opening 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan and tell me how many soldiers you can name. Death is not a pretty thing. In a war scenario (which is just about every comic crossover ever), things are going to get very messy. Yes, it should matter when a major character dies and that's why most of them get the Kung Fu Movie Death (when the Sensei dies and he gets a good 5 minutes to reflect on his life and recite a poem before passing on).

As for the nobodies, you wouldn't know who they were regardless of whether they were shot offscreen or ripped in half. We all understand at this point that deaths in comics are more of a sales gimmick than a storytelling device, so the least they can do is make those deaths reflect the consequences of war.

[SuaveStar]

Fair, I'm just saying do we need to see every characters heads blown off, guts ripped out, or just mutilated? I'm exaggerating, but at the same time, can you name one character in saving private ryan or any war film who got a violent death and wasn't given more than two minutes of screen/page time.

Take Forrest Gump for example, the generals legs get blown off, is it graphic, yes, but we met him as a character and got to know him for more than two minutes.

As for the nobodies, you wouldn't know who they were regardless of whether they were shoot offscreen or ripped in half. We all understand at this point that deaths in comics are more of a sales gimmick than a storytelling device, so the least they can do is make those deaths reflect the consequences of war.

Pretty much, your right here. Civil War wouldn't have worked as well, if the people in the accident were just hurt, but generally ok, then we would have just thought Stark was a dick, who thought "Hey, I'm doing fine and everyone knows who I am!" but this way, it makes it seem like he's doing it to give people piece of mind and help the family's of the victims.

Also, not everyone in war is murdered horribly in war, some people could get shot in an artery and bleed out, or have a clean shot to the head, theirs a thousand different ways to die that aren't as graphic as the ones overused these days. (Except in GL Sinestro Corps War, which has the sentient virus that killed that planet, they all bleed a little, but they die due to the virus, not getting shot at repeatedly.)

I'm not saying violence is bad, but I'm saying do we need to have every fucking character die gruesome deaths, as after a while, you can start to get bored of it. Well, I did.

Also, I'm not saying, "I want all violence in comics to be replaced with "Pow, bang, kersploosh!" cause thats more friendly"

[Guest]

Fair, I'm just saying do we need to see every characters heads blown off, guts ripped out, or just mutilated? I'm exaggerating, but at the same time, can you name one character in saving private ryan or any war film who got a violent death and wasn't given more than two minutes of screen/page time.

Uh... most of them, actually.

I understand that you want the minor characters that die to be more fleshed out, but the reason most of them die is because they're either dead weight or were elaborated on, but just not in the big crossover you were reading when they died. If they were deep valued characters, they wouldn't be getting killed off in the first place. Not every character can get what J'onn did and have an entire tie-in devoted to their death, and your problem with the graphic violence seems to be more of an aesthetic preference than anything.

[SuaveStar]

Fair, I'm just saying do we need to see every characters heads blown off, guts ripped out, or just mutilated? I'm exaggerating, but at the same time, can you name one character in saving private ryan or any war film who got a violent death and wasn't given more than two minutes of screen/page time.

Uh... most of them, actually.

Oh. I haven't seen it

I understand that you want the minor characters that die to be more fleshed out, but the reason most of them die is because they're either dead weight or were elaborated on, but just not in the big crossover you were reading when they died

Referencing 52 here:

Well, it's not just fleshed out, but, not have everyone be burned alive, have some imagination with the deaths, like early in the same issue, with Intergang killing the ganglord in Gotham with the crime bible, it was different and was well done. You know, looking through 52, I noticed that although it was violent, the art was really good in places. Also, the only reason the massacre is caused by one of the fucking idiots from Infinity Inc trying to save someone bringing them into the crossfire.I don't want it to be Immortal Bald Man in Armor to die

I don't have a problem with the violence, hell no. If I ever got the chance to write a comic, I'd have the mad hatter make someone drink tea that he'd poisoned, make them into a zombie who was paralysed but could see and feel everything and then have the mad hatter turn that person into a life sized puppet for his personal performance of Alice in wonderland at the Gotham Civic Centre.

All, I was saying in the beginning was that my real problem with 52 was at a certain point I said "Another pointless death. Should I care anymore" as I care more about the characters like Black Adam and Renee in this, than some random tits that paid to be superheros being killed. That's all.

Also:

Why did Immortal Bald Man in Armour have to die!

[dc20willsave]

I don't have a problem with the violence, hell no. If I ever got the chance to write a comic, I'd have the mad hatter make someone drink tea that he'd poisoned, make them into a zombie who was paralysed but could see and feel everything and then have the mad hatter turn that person into a life sized puppet for his personal performance of Alice in wonderland at the Gotham Civic Centre.

All, I was saying in the beginning was that my real problem with 52 was at a certain point I said "Another pointless death. Should I care anymore" as I care more about the characters like Black Adam and Renee in this, than some random tits that paid to be superheros being killed. That's all.

First off, Like the Mad Hatter plot. Secondly, the deaths of the people who paid for the Everyman treatment in 52 aren't completely pointless. A large amount of them are there to tell you that just because you have Super-powers, you're not a superhero. Most Supers train to be ready, have a reason to fight crime instead of just wanting to do it. Look at Kingdom Come where the people fighting crime are as bad as the criminals themselves. The Everymen in 52 dieing is mainly because they thought they had powers now so they'll be just as effective as the ones who had stood in the crucible. It also serves the plot to reinforce that Checkmate is needed to keep an eye on the Super-Powered community.

[SuaveStar]

Secondly, the deaths of the people who paid for the Everyman treatment in 52 aren't completely pointless. A large amount of them are there to tell you that just because you have Super-powers, you're not a superhero. Most Supers train to be ready, have a reason to fight crime instead of just wanting to do it. Look at Kingdom Come where the people fighting crime are as bad as the criminals themselves. The Everymen in 52 dieing is mainly because they thought they had powers now so they'll be just as effective as the ones who had stood in the crucible. It also serves the plot to reinforce that Checkmate is needed to keep an eye on the Super-Powered community.

Yeah, your right.

Also, I have only finished the second volume of 52, with the fallout of that massacre just happening, it just felt like that girl who died and was given a parade, they couldn't do that for these nobodys, I was just annoyed that they killed off my new favourite character immortal bald man in armour. He had so many layers, he could have had his own mini, but no they had to kill him. Also, I read volume 2 really quickly, like over a day, so for me, it felt like all the deaths were coming in quick succession. Also, Wonder Girl and the cult of Connor. Wouldn't it have been awesome if during Red Robin, when she goes to see Robin to convince him Bruce is dead, he just turns around and says "Really, they sent you to talk to me about getting over a fucking death!? "

First off, Like the Mad Hatter plot.

Thanks.

[dc20willsave]

Secondly, the deaths of the people who paid for the Everyman treatment in 52 aren't completely pointless. A large amount of them are there to tell you that just because you have Super-powers, you're not a superhero. Most Supers train to be ready, have a reason to fight crime instead of just wanting to do it. Look at Kingdom Come where the people fighting crime are as bad as the criminals themselves. The Everymen in 52 dieing is mainly because they thought they had powers now so they'll be just as effective as the ones who had stood in the crucible. It also serves the plot to reinforce that Checkmate is needed to keep an eye on the Super-Powered community.

Yeah, your right.

Also, I have only finished the second volume of 52, with the fallout of that massacre just happening, it just felt like that girl who died and was given a parade, they couldn't do that for these nobodys, I was just annoyed that they killed off my new favourite character immortal bald man in armour. He had so many layers, he could have had his own mini, but no they had to kill him. Also, I read volume 2 really quickly, like over a day, so for me, it felt like all the deaths were coming in quick succession. Also, Wonder Girl and the cult of Connor. Wouldn't it have been awesome if during Red Robin, when she goes to see Robin to convince him Bruce is dead, he just turns around and says "Really, they sent you to talk to me about getting over a fucking death!? "

Yeah, to tell you the truth, having read 52 when it was coming out week to week and reading it in succession now, it's still a fantastic story but worked better in the weekly format where all the events had time to be set up, work in your mind and you had the most awesome cliffhanger hanging over your head at the end of 34, sitting there for a week, waiting for you to pick it up.

[SuaveStar]

Secondly, the deaths of the people who paid for the Everyman treatment in 52 aren't completely pointless. A large amount of them are there to tell you that just because you have Super-powers, you're not a superhero. Most Supers train to be ready, have a reason to fight crime instead of just wanting to do it. Look at Kingdom Come where the people fighting crime are as bad as the criminals themselves. The Everymen in 52 dieing is mainly because they thought they had powers now so they'll be just as effective as the ones who had stood in the crucible. It also serves the plot to reinforce that Checkmate is needed to keep an eye on the Super-Powered community.

Yeah, your right.

Also, I have only finished the second volume of 52, with the fallout of that massacre just happening, it just felt like that girl who died and was given a parade, they couldn't do that for these nobodys, I was just annoyed that they killed off my new favourite character immortal bald man in armour. He had so many layers, he could have had his own mini, but no they had to kill him. Also, I read volume 2 really quickly, like over a day, so for me, it felt like all the deaths were coming in quick succession. Also, Wonder Girl and the cult of Connor. Wouldn't it have been awesome if during Red Robin, when she goes to see Robin to convince him Bruce is dead, he just turns around and says "Really, they sent you to talk to me about getting over a fucking death!? "

Yeah, to tell you the truth, having read 52 when it was coming out week to week and reading it in succession now, it's still a fantastic story but worked better in the weekly format where all the events had time to be set up, work in your mind and you had the most awesome cliffhanger hanging over your head at the end of 34, sitting there for a week, waiting for you to pick it up.

Yeah, I'm enjoying reading it, but it would work better and I wouldn't have said anything about the deaths if I was reading it weekly instead of 13 in 1

[grahamvidger]

SCanning online comic book discussions. Hate for Jeph Loeb? Silly fanboys, Ultimatum and everything after it aren't in Ultimate Marvel continuity. Their all part of Jeph Loeb's universe (which branches out for each universe created by comics industries), in this universe their is no character development and nothing makes sense, everything is a big confusing event, that kills everyone or makes the most evil person in the world emperor or president.

Doesn't everybody know that?