dc20willsave Posted August 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 It looks like Diana is trying to get away from him or like he's more into the kiss then she is. Either way, yeah, this feels like the only reason that they wiped a relationship with 70+ years of backstory out of reality and it's more than a little annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuaveStar Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 ...so this was the reason they needed to break up Supes and Lois? Really? I'd say yes and no. Yes, they did it to have Superman and Wonder Woman get together, and get publicity from it. And no, because they can also have some publicity, if the post flashpoint Lois and Clark ever get together in the future. This way, DC get to have their cake, and eat it. It looks like Diana is trying to get away from him or like he's more into the kiss then she is. Either way, yeah, this feels like the only reason that they wiped a relationship with 70+ years of backstory out of reality and it's more than a little annoying. She has her rope tied around him, so she's pulling him into her. I'm guessing this is her way to deal with Steve Trevor possibly dying in issue 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc20willsave Posted August 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 But if you'll look, she's not pulling him towards her, she's pulling him to the side of her which kinda doesn't work. You know who I blame for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Fucking Kevin Smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuaveStar Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 But if you'll look, she's not pulling him towards her, she's pulling him to the side of her which kinda doesn't work. Jim Lee art doesn't have to make sense! It just has to look pretty, and show a bit of T&A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Here's the deal: I've spent quite a lot of time researching the Superman relationship dynamic. Why he loves Lois, why Lana Lang is important, how Wonder Woman might fit into it, etc. Superman is my favorite fictional character of all time, and his fairy-tale romance with Lois is very important to me. And I think this is awesome. Something we need to get out of the way: we all know this isn't going to last. It's NOT. DC knows it and we know it. This is a sidestep. Superman isn't going to marry Wonder Woman and be with her permanently. For Superman's relationships, this is the equivalent of Superman Red/Blue, or any of the other changes in comics that last for a few months to a year or more, then quickly get reverted. Grant Morrison's written on a number of occasions that the Superman/Lois dynamic is essentially at the heart of the entire DCU; it's basically impossible for the DCU to go on for any prolonged time without going back to that romance. Just because Clark and Lois aren't together at this very moment in time in no way means that they won't be in the future. As for the "they got rid of the Lois/Clark relationship specifically to do this" thing, I don't buy it. Sure, if you put this under the larger category of "throwing twists into the dynamic," then it fits. If he's going to be younger and single now, why not have some fun with the concept and get him together with Wonder Woman for a time? Do we actually expect that he remained entirely celibate and had no other girlfriends aside from Lana and Lois in his entire life? If this is the Superman story essentially started from the beginning, why is it a problem to not have him be with Lois immediately? And in any case, it's not as though a Supes/WW pairing doesn't actually make sense. They have a hell of a lot in common, both being inhuman immortal sometimes-alienated super-strong flying red-and-blue-clothed members of the Justice League that very specifically believe in the concepts of truth and justice to their very core. I've always said that Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple makes all the sense in the world; it's just not the way things are meant to be. (LOTR fans: Superman is Aragorn, Wonder Woman is Eowyn, Lois is Arwen) Oh, and as for that "relationship with 70+ years of backstory" thing, that's not how that works. Sure, that's as long as Lois Lane's existed, but it's not as though that same story extended through all 70 years. We had that huge reboot in 1986, don't forget, which at the time set the Superman/Lois relationship back to square one as well. That's how these stories tend to work; they continue for a generation or more, then get retold. Meanwhile, those past stories still exist, effectively sealed off for all time like a capsule. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow and Superman: The Wedding Album still exist. Just because the story of the new DCU says that things were "changed," that doesn't matter. No one can go back in time and literally get rid of stories that happened in the past. (thank god the Flash doesn't exist in the real world, am I right? ) As far as Superman and Wonder Woman are concerned, literally all their continuity has been wiped from existence, so this is the start of a new universe entirely for them. Why is that a problem? How is that terribly different from other mediums? Dark Knight Rises spoiler: If the next Batman movie doesn't have Bruce and Selina as a couple (cause, y'know, reboot), is anyone going to complain that they "broke up that relationship" so Bruce could bang Vicki Vale? No, because that's the way these things work in movies and everyone expects it. Comics frequently work the same way, just on a much longer timetable. So we should be happy that we got fifteen years of a married Superman and Lois (meaning that the post-Crisis universe kept Lois and Clark not only together but married for 60% of its existence). Personally, I actually think that this is extremely cool, both from the silly/fun fanboy angle of Supes and Wondy getting together as well as the fact that now this makes the Superman/Clark/Lois dynamic a hell of a lot more interesting. How is Lois supposed to compete with essentially a female Superman? Why is Superman going to choose to be with Lois (and he will) despite her technically being nowhere near as amazing as Wonder Woman? Yeah, it throws a speedbump in the road for Clark and Lois. But maybe that's a good thing. Do we really want their relationship to just smoothly jump into place with no tension whatsoever? Sure, DC's going to market the hell out of this as "the new status quo," but we all know what that means. It's the new status quo for about a year, then it goes back to being the classic thing again. Let's just let ourselves have fun with it while it lasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Eh. If they're going to do something else with Superman they might as well at least explore this. Lord knows enough other things from All Star Batman & Robin have been incorporated, why not this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Grant Morrison's written on a number of occasions that the Superman/Lois dynamic is essentially at the heart of the entire DCU; it's basically impossible for the DCU to go on for any prolonged time without going back to that romance. I wondered why the reboot seemed so heartless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 There is that, yes. But then I'd say a lot of how Superman's acted towards everyone in both Superman and Action has been rather emotionless and without passion. He goes and fights bad guys because... why? We're told that he cares about people, but that's rarely if ever shown on a personal level. At least now he's got a girlfriend, so that's something in the positive category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koete Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Why does this seem so familiar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Honestly, the problems with Supes have more to do witb killing the Kents than anything else. Even more, though, this is a slight to WW. For the first time, as long as I can remember, I actually give a shit about her book, her story is really good and the art is fantastic. However, none of this matters, because she'll be relegated to "Superman's Girlfriend", now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Double post, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donomark Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Honestly, the problems with Supes have more to do witb killing the Kents than anything else. Even more, though, this is a slight to WW. For the first time, as long as I can remember, I actually give a shit about her book, her story is really good and the art is fantastic. However, none of this matters, because she'll be relegated to "Superman's Girlfriend", now. That's exactly what's going to happen. Same with with Storm and Black Panther. Storm, who's arguably a more popular character, got relegated to midwife status once she was arbitrarily attatched to T'Challa. This won't big up Diana, it will big up Superman as someone who bagged Diana. I don't think the idea in itself is bad, but the execution's gonna blow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 So, what, female heroes aren't allowed to date male heroes, or they're "less" somehow? If the execution's bad when it happens, then that'll be that. But the concept in itself is a good one; let's hope this goes well for now, and save the bitching for later, if and when things actually get sour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donomark Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 So, what, female heroes aren't allowed to date male heroes, or they're "less" somehow? If the execution's bad when it happens, then that'll be that. But the concept in itself is a good one; let's hope this goes well for now, and save the bitching for later, if and when things actually get sour. The to latter point, I agree. To the former point, YES. That's exactly how it will play out. Just look at Black Widow. She's nailed DD, Tony Stark, Wolverine, Bucky, Cap, In the fanbase from what I've seen, that's a boon to the male heroes, not to her. If this pushes WW into bigger popularity, then horray..? But I doubt it. It'll just give people a canonical reason to say Supes is banging/used to bang Wonder Woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Honestly, it's getting old. Something happens, I say it'll suck, Aaron says it'll be good, in the end it's entirely average, and we're both kinda wrong. EDIT: Except what they are doing with the Question. That will be awful and make me terribly sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venneh Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 The zero issues of Liefeld's books are his last. He just quit DC this morning, citing fucked editorial. DC: So fucked up that Rob Liefeld wants nothing to do with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Honestly, it's getting old. Something happens, I say it'll suck, Aaron says it'll be good, in the end it's entirely average, and we're both kinda wrong. Ha. Yeah, that's about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothian Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 From a non-comics reader's perspective, I humbly offer up the following question: What's the big deal? If this is a new continuity (and this doesn't involve Batman or GL, who've meant to retain links to their pre-Flashpoint continuities if I've been reading things right), then why can't Superman & Wonder Woman be an item? I understand that the Supes-Lois dynamic is a big deal, but then they only married in comic continuity to tie in with Lois & Clark. Similarly, in other media, the JLU pushed a relationship of sorts between Diana and Batman. Granted Bats doesn't have a sustained love interest like Supes does, but doesn't Diana traditionally have Steve Trevor? In the DCAU, that relationship is explained within a specific time period and is therefore wrapped up neatly, but the concept of Batman and Wonder Woman wasn't THAT outrageous. The DCnU got criticised from its inception for not being radically different enough. And now Superman has traded (he says, not knowing if new Supes was even in a relationship with her) Lois Lane in for Wonder Woman, and that's a deal-breaker? I'm not firing off criticisms, I just don't understand what people a) are mad about, b) expected from a universe reboot, however half-arsed it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Hey, Ian. I think we're in complete and total agreement. ...I won't tell anyone if you won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koete Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 First Avril Lavigne and Chad Kroeger get engaged, then Ian and Knightwing agree about something? Guess the Mayans were right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothian Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Hey now, I'm not saying K-Dubs is RIGHT, I just don't yet understand why his position is wrong. I *think* I got myself out of that predicament..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Oh, you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koete Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Stay tuned; I'll be launching my Kickstarter for a remake of The Odd Couple starring Ian and Knightwing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 I am so down for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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