DC reboot


dc20willsave

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They CAN kill the Joker because WB makes no money from their comics. Killing comic book Joker makes no negative effect on the films, cartoons, lunchboxes. However, it's the fallout from that that can make things shitty for DC. When WB releases the new Batman movie (say...2016?) which will obviously be a reboot, it isn't outside the realm of possibility that Joker would be the villain.

It will not affect the film in any way if comic book Joker is dead. It WILL affect the comic books if people who see the movie go to pick up a Joker book and he's been dead for some time. It was interesting, but unsurprising, when it became evident that Tony Stark WAS Robert Downey Jr. a few months before that first IM movie came out.

They can kill the Joker with not ill effect from WB. They just don't have the balls.

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Had I had the choice, an interesting way to begin Batman's story in the DCnU would have been to have Bats, as a very young crimefighter, kill the Joker which gives him the lesson against violence in a NEW way. New is an interesting word that DC editorial has not grasped the meaning of even though they rolled out an initiative with that as the key word.

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I think it tells a strong story if Batman sticks to his moral code of not killing the Joker, but I agree that at this point the police should have a "shoot on sight" policy.

For all us Golden Age fanboy's (all three of us) I liked the reference to Batman #1 (1939) with the mentioning of the Claridge family.

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I think it tells a strong story if Batman sticks to his moral code of not killing the Joker, but I agree that at this point the police should have a "shoot on sight" policy.

For all us Golden Age fanboy's (all three of us) I liked the reference to Batman #1 (1939) with the mentioning of the Claridge family.

That's just it. I can actually make a case for Batman not killing - seeing his parents murdered left him completely psychologically incapable of taking a life for any reason whatsoever, or what have you - but Gordon should have no such compunction.

Apparently I'm one of the kids that needs to get off this lawn.

I left a good frisbee on that lawn, I'd like it back.

Nope. it's mine now.

I want to stress that I'm not against death in comics if it's done well and seen to its logical conclusion. When the Green Goblin killed Gwen Stacy, Spider-Man had absolutely every intention of killing him. His grief and his rage were handled well by the creators, and when he finally got a hold of the Goblin, Peter beat him within an inch of his life. He stopped himself because at the end of the day, Peter Parker is an extremely moral man who does not have it in him to kill, and he also realized how sick Norman Osborn was. However, Norman still died 32 pages after killing Gwen. In "A Death in the Family", Batman didn't even pretend he was going to do anything other than kill the Joker; the government had to call in Superman to ensure he didn't. "The Dark Phoenix Saga" originally ended with Jean Grey losing her powers; Jim Shooter took one look at that and said "Absolutely not. She killed billions. She has to pay for that. Kill her."

Logical consistency has to happen.

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I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks that DC has gone too far over the line with the Joker. It seems like the writers are all trying to write "the most awesome Joker story ever!!!!" Snyder has said repeatedly that Joker is his favorite character, so he's trying to make this some sort of ultimate crime. But in reality I'm fucking bored out of my mind with the character and the way he is used.

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I always thought that it would make an interesting story if one of the other DC heroes like Wonder Woman killed the Joker. It'd be biting too much off of the Maxwell Lord thing, but would make for good tension.

Superman and Batman are really the only heroes in comics with a no-kill policy these days anyway. Spidey tries to maintain, but every other hero by this point has said "Fuck it."

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So here's my take on it:

You're all perfectly correct in saying that logically, according to the rules of reality, Joker should be dead. Not only should the police be trying to kill him, but he should have been dead a long time ago. The reason that I feel it's totally within reason to say that he isn't dead is simply because the DC universe purposely does not behave according to the normal rules of reality.

While I normally don't like to agree with Grant Morrison's take on the DCU, one thing that he's always said (that I mostly agree with) is that the DC universe is a modern mythology, and the major characters within it are gods. I actually think that it's more accurate to say that the DCU's characters are hybrids between mortals and gods, a la Hercules. To some degree, they're real people living in a real world. To another degree, they're entities defined by archetypal ideals, subject more to the laws of cyclical dramatic irony rather than any Earthly restrictions. Comic book storylines and "events" often move in seasonal and annual cycles, much in the same way that ancient civilizations viewed weather patterns and natural disasters and attributed them to the actions of gods. The sun can't stay out of the sky permanently, and no one, mortal or god, will ever (permanently) kill Apollo.

The Joker is essentially a demigod of chaos. He doesn't have a human name; he doesn't have a human identity. More than any other Batman villain, the Joker is basically an idea put into physical form. There's a reason that Joker has survived so many incredibly impossible should-be-dead situations: he's effectively not human anymore, at least not in terms of how the story is concerned. It's almost an inverse of Batman himself, who's treated as a superhuman despite being technically human. There's no way anyone could justifiably survive everything he goes through, and there's no way he could exist as he does (a publicly-recognized costumed vigilante coordinating with the police in the most hostile city in America).

Now, logically, there should be internal consistency up front, so that all the mythic irony can exist behind the scenes but still leave the DCU a semi-plausible place. To some degree, that exists. In The Killing Joke, Gordon says that they can't execute the Joker or they essentially lower themselves to his level. Consider Gordon's situation: Prior to Gordon's arrival at the GCPD, Gotham was a place where everyone, cop and criminal, treated killing like a currency. "Kill or be killed or join the other side" was the law of the land, and Gordon was the one who had to step in and say "no, we don't act like criminals in order to beat them," because, after all, that was how the GCPD had became so corrupt in the first place; trying to put out fire with gasoline.

Now, as far as I'm aware, there isn't a "do not kill" rule with the GCPD in a firefight situation; it's not as though the PD actually sit there and don't try to shoot the Joker when he shows up. The only rule is that they don't execute once they capture. That in itself is kind of wonky, considering the corrupt nature of both the Gotham judicial system and Arkham, but otherwise Gordon would be basically declaring himself the law. I could see him making an exception for Joker, but then we have what is basically the bible of the Joker/Batman/Gordon relationship, The Killing Joke, saying the exact opposite. This is basically where Joker-as-literary-demigod factor comes in. He's the malevolent trickster character; you can defeat him, but he can't ever truly die.

That being said, I do think it's possible this storyline might see the end of Joker, at least temporarily. Spoilers for Arkham City:

He actually did die in Batman: Arkham City last year, in a classically ironic manner that left many wondering if he was *really* dead, or how he might return in the future (lazarus pit is a decent possibility). I could see that happening in the main DCU as well.

It's notable that this storyline is called "Death of the Family" and that it deals with the entire Bat-family. This isn't necessarily a story about the Joker in the Killing Joke sense—that is to say, simply re-examining Joker's character. It is, however, a story of the Joker really, honestly taking the gloves off and seriously threatening the entire Bat-family. Given what Snyder's said about the arc, the emphasis is likely to be more on how the family reacts to this and how their relationships develop from it, rather than the usual deal of once again saying "the Joker is really evil, you guys. Like, REALLY evil." Hell, just the fact that Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon are both involved in the arc (and that the arc's name is a reference to A Death in the Family) means that Snyder is directly addressing the two stories Dan is pointing out.

I'd actually like it if they gave Joker a comic-book-style "death" at the end of this arc; something that would fulfill the needs of mythic dramatic irony (having a powerful ending/death that doesn't entirely shut the door). Knowing Snyder and the way he writes, I have a feeling we're either going to get that or something equally poignant at the end.

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I fucking love the Joker, but he should have died years ago, and it should have been Jason Todd's doing. It keeps Jason at the point where Bruce can never take him back, completely. It gives Joker the karmic punishment he deserves, and even though Bruce didn't do it, the blood is still kind of on his hands.

Also in this dream world, that leads to Jason having a redemption arc with special appearance by Richard Dragon: Kung Fu Fighter.

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Every time they do the story where Batman or whoever is close to killing Joker I'm always on the side of the guy holding the gun, rather than the one talking them down. Joker's continued existence is one of those things where I just suspend my disbelief, just like with a vigilante getting by because they wear bright colours. It's honestly barely in the top 20 of things that don't make sense in comics.

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Just as Batman doesn't need to be Bruce Wayne, I don't feel The Joker needs to be The Joker.

Here are two ideas, only one of which is mine:

01. As Des said on Twitter, if The Joker is killed "in the name of justice," cults will be formed in his name. From there you can bring in the Jokerz, which could cause more damage than The Joker ever did by himself. So by wiping the city / world of the menace, whoever killed him actually made things worse.

02. His face has been cut off. Before he dies, The Joker could lace the skin with some sort of toxin, so whoever touches it is driven mad, and pulls crimes off not just in his name, but as him. Thing is, that would only work for a little while, because eventually the GCPD or Batman would dispose of the face. So, the cults / Jokerz could make Joker death masks which they force onto unsuspecting citizens. Doing this would also bring his origin full circle, in that he started as a legacy character (The Red Hood) and he became one as The Joker.

In addition, imagine how Harley Quinn would react to fake Jokers. You could actually turn her into a sometimes hero / antihero by having her hunt them and / or the gang down.

For my money, there are more / better stories to tell with a dead Joker than a living one.

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That does seem like a very Morrison thing to do, mainly because they'd never let another writer get away with it. Similar to how the Mutant gang of DKR has started to appear in Gotham the death of the Joker could start to lead to the rise of the Joker gang as seen in Batman Beyond.

If they hadn't just done the reboot I think they'd consider it, but instead I think they'll just try to ignore most of the Joker's history outside of the big events and build the story from there.

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02. His face has been cut off. Before he dies, The Joker could lace the skin with some sort of toxin, so whoever touches it is driven mad, and pulls crimes off not just in his name, but as him. Thing is, that would only work for a little while, because eventually the GCPD or Batman would dispose of the face. So, the cults / Jokerz could make Joker death masks which they force onto unsuspecting citizens. Doing this would also bring his origin full circle, in that he started as a legacy character (The Red Hood) and he became one as The Joker.

Morrison did "Something" like that during Batman & Robin. Where Joker laced Joker venom under his nails, and whomever he scratched, would be poisoned. It was in issue 13 of that series.

I want to see Snyder's story pan out, and then, take Joker off the table for about 2-3 years, and have him return when he's had time to be missed. I think part of the problem right now is, there's so many Batman books these days, it's hard to actually have a good villain off the grid for a while for readers to miss them. And with a character like the Joker, who every writer can adapt to their own styles, it's hard to keep him away for long.

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Magog already showed up and then was killed off in some event.

Here are my two cents: do a story where the Joker actually gets out on trial. He's found guilty and sentenced to death. He gets executed and then it goes into a Joker cult. Personally, that's what I want. They bring in a competent DA who is willing to point out that the Joker makes plans and is therefore able to stand trial and is therefore sane enough to be put to death. Then later, maybe the New DA goes insane, because that's what DAs do in Gotham, and he becomes the new Joker or something. See, everyone wins!

Actually, no, this is DC we're talking about. They make it an event, Battle of the Jokers. The leader of the Jokerz, the DA who goes insane, Harley Quinn, and, Hell, Duella Dent fighting for the title of The Joker. Once again, you can have your cake and kill The Joker to, all without Batman getting his hands dirty.

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Actually, no, this is DC we're talking about. They make it an event, Battle of the Jokers. The leader of the Jokerz, the DA who goes insane, Harley Quinn, and, Hell, Duella Dent fighting for the title of The Joker. Once again, you can have your cake and kill The Joker to, all without Batman getting his hands dirty.

It turns out the REAL Joker was just in hibernation all the time, and comes back in a new black costume with a mullet.

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01. As Des said on Twitter, if The Joker is killed "in the name of justice," cults will be formed in his name. From there you can bring in the Jokerz, which could cause more damage than The Joker ever did by himself. So by wiping the city / world of the menace, whoever killed him actually made things worse.

For my money, there are more / better stories to tell with a dead Joker than a living one.

Maybe Magog is brought into the New 52, and everything ends up turning into Kingdom Come.

That's the thing. If you start killing off the main villains and moving into something like the Jokerz, you start going into Batman Beyond and Kingdom Come territory. And then you're not even reinterpreting or updating the DCU anymore; you're just progressing it into something else entirely. I tend to think that that's what alternate universe stories are for.

Also, if the New 52 is actually meant as a jumping-on point for a new generation, then it doesn't make sense to immediately kill off the Joker. Sure, those of us who've read every major Joker story in the last three decades are probably okay with him being gone, but what about for all the new readers?

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02. His face has been cut off. Before he dies, The Joker could lace the skin with some sort of toxin, so whoever touches it is driven mad, and pulls crimes off not just in his name, but as him. Thing is, that would only work for a little while, because eventually the GCPD or Batman would dispose of the face. So, the cults / Jokerz could make Joker death masks which they force onto unsuspecting citizens. Doing this would also bring his origin full circle, in that he started as a legacy character (The Red Hood) and he became one as The Joker.

Morrison did "Something" like that during Batman & Robin. Where Joker laced Joker venom under his nails, and whomever he scratched, would be poisoned. It was in issue 13 of that series.

I want to see Snyder's story pan out, and then, take Joker off the table for about 2-3 years, and have him return when he's had time to be missed. I think part of the problem right now is, there's so many Batman books these days, it's hard to actually have a good villain off the grid for a while for readers to miss them. And with a character like the Joker, who every writer can adapt to their own styles, it's hard to keep him away for long.

This has been done a number of times in the recent past, tho. He dissappeared after he was shot in the face at the start of Morrision's Batman run. He dissapeared after Damien ran him over at the end of Batman R.I.P. He was missing during most of the Batman Reborn arc until the end of Morrison's Batman and Robin run. And he was gone for a year after 'Tec #1.

I agree with you in that he should be used sparingly, but he's been taken off of the table frequently in the past 6 or so years.

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Here's the thing though: everyone has a Joker story? Great but go look up Batman's Rogues Gallery. I'll wait here and have a Pineapple Fanta.

Mmmm, refreshing.

Okay, back? Good.

HOLY FUCK! Batman has a lot of criminals he's put away at various times. Why don't we use them instead of going back to the same tired old clown every couple of years because yea, they may have kept him in a box for a year or two at a time but then we have 6+ months that he's hanging out again. Hell, try making a new villain. Be creative. It's your job. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to hit up gas stations until I cam find more Fanta. Delicious.

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There's a big sandbox. I wouldn't be creating any new villains for them to make money off of. I'd keep it under my hat until I'm popular enough to see my own indie books published. But, yeah. I get what you're saying.

TONS of Bat-villains. Bring a Golden Ager back and make him/her relevant again. Do something interesting and NEW other than the same damn Joker story with bigger and bigger stakes.

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