What is on tab for Epi. 58 since no CW?

[mguy1977]

What is on tab for Epi. 58 since no CW? A CW rant episode or discussion on late books perhaps?

Matthew

[Missy]

Haven't decided yet. We may still do a Civil War episode: covering the related tie-ins that have been released to that point, as well as the delay. Maybe that will be our Descent episode, and then 59 could possibly be handed over to DW for his long-awaited review of Silent Hill (which is released on DVD a week or two before episode 59 airs) or coverage of the horror convention he recently attended.

We'll see what comes up.

[Mull]

How about about taking a look at like 5 key guys from each side and talking about how they have been affected by things, then also looking to each persons future both during the Civil War and after the series finishes. Sort of like a mid-term report kind of thing?

[Missy]

Goddamn, that's brilliant!

Here are the top five (or less) from each side as I see it, and these will be the ones we discuss. Correct me if you disagree. SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT!

Pro

Iron Man

Mr. Fantastic

Spider-Man

Thor

Yellowjacket

Anti

Captain America

Luke Cage

Nick Fury

"Daredevil"

Wolverine

Expatriates

The Thing

Doctor Strange

Jessica Jones

Neutral

Black Panther

X-Men

Other

Speedball

Maria Hill

Namor

Punisher

[Mull]

Sounds good to me, do some predictions then when the series finishes come back with a final show wrapping things up and look back at the predictions.

[Mull]

Possibly Floyd and Urich too?

[Jacobi]

MDS, what was with all the venom directed at Black Panther and Storm? Maybe it's just me, but your anger seemed entirely misplaced. Storm and Black Panther ARE "these great heroes" and I certainly wouldn't wish them dead (or be ambivalent to it) just because a writer wrote a character they interacted with wrongly.

They didn't "treat" Doom in any way that wasn't called for within the context of the book. Panther and Storm were very much in character and were responding how I would imagine they would if anyone came at them like that.

Now was what Doom saying out of his character? That seems to be the main issue. I can't speak on that as I've only read Waid's FF run, and have a limited exposure to the character (though I've always liked him), but I always thought Doom was more like Namor in his self-importance, so I wouldn't think you were wrong to say he isn't a racist. In fact I would think he would view men like Black Panther, Namor, and Black Bolt as closer to his equals than most as they're Kings. He probably does judge people, but on their power, influence, and intelligence.

Be upset with the writer, not the characters. How many times have great characters been handled poorly by less than stellar writers? Do you wish they all would be killed off too? C'mon now.

Furthermore, not saying that Doom would do it, but minorities treat other minorities like crap all. the. time.

[Mull]

I like the idea of keeping Mr Fantastic around the Fan 4 after Civil War, you can imagine Johnny taking some of the new team to him every year or so for new inventions. Kind of like M (I think lol) from James Bond, where they go to him for help with inventions and the odd hint, then it also gives them the option to bring him back for certain missions.

Oh and I love the comparison between Cap and Punisher if he were in World War 2

[Missy]

MDS, what was with all the venom directed at Black Panther and Storm? Maybe it's just me, but your anger seemed entirely misplaced. Storm and Black Panther ARE "these great heroes" and I certainly wouldn't wish them dead (or be ambivalent to it) just because a writer wrote a character they interacted with wrongly.

Had, say, Gravity, Araña, one of the Runaways or Young Avengers, Typeface, Sally Floyd, Beak, Chamber or some other relatively new character said such a thing, I'd forgive it because their character hasn't been fully defined. But Doom has been around as long as the Fantastic Four. He's the villain all other Marvel villains have to live up to, and has been for nearly 45 years. We know his character inside and out. We know how he's going to react to any given situation, and what he'll say to his enemies. So to add this streak of racism and misogyny out of the blue is not only piss-poor writing, but shows a lack of respect for the character and the fans that care about him. Just because Doom is a pompous king with homicidal tendencies, misplaced anger and unresolved mommy issues doesn't mean he's a racist.

Furthermore, I didn't wish them dead. I said: "... I don't give a crap what happens to the Black Panther now. They could kill him off tomorrow, Storm too for all I care, and I-I-I it wouldn't bother me in the slightest because of the way they treated Doom." ("They" meaning Hudlin.) And, "Yeah, he and Storm are gonna get a divorce, and they're both gonna die terrible, horrible deaths by the end of the year. I don't care!"

Not caring is a completely different matter, and is justified. If the titular character of a book you were not reading died and it had zero impact on books and characters you did care about, would you suddenly care about said character's passing?

For me, the answer is obvious: if I cared about the book and / or character, I'd be reading it. In this case, Reginald Hudlin left such a sour taste in my mouth, that I'll no longer support any book we pens. It's clear to me that instead of creating a real reason for these two kings to fight (such as past interactions, even ones retconned in), he took the lazy way and made Doom a racist. That's just as lazy as saying, "Panther needs a wife. Well, he's black... and Storm's black. Here comes the bride!" Yawn!

They didn't "treat" Doom in any way that wasn't called for within the context of the book. Panther and Storm were very much in character and were responding how I would imagine they would if anyone came at them like that.

Yeah, Panther telling Storm to fall in line and never question him, and Storm rolling with the decision, was "in character."

Now was what Doom saying out of his character? That seems to be the main issue. I can't speak on that as I've only read Waid's FF run, and have a limited exposure to the character (though I've always liked him), but I always thought Doom was more like Namor in his self-importance, so I wouldn't think you were wrong to say he isn't a racist. In fact I would think he would view men like Black Panther, Namor, and Black Bolt as closer to his equals than most as they're Kings. He probably does judge people, but on their power, influence, and intelligence.

Indeed, he does judge people, often by the standard he sets for himself. If they don't meet it, no matter their color or place of birth, they're disposed of. But judging someone by the color of their skin, having him claim that Wakandans' intellect possibly comes from "a low-grade mutant strain" is out of character and wrong.

Be upset with the writer, not the characters. How many times have great characters been handled poorly by less than stellar writers? Do you wish they all would be killed off too? C'mon now.

Again, I never -- not once -- wished them dead. I said, "I don't care" if they die. And I am upset with the writer, not the characters. Whatever faith I had in Hudlin has been lost.

Furthermore, not saying that Doom would do it, but minorities treat other minorities like crap all. the. time.

Correct. Even as I was saying it on the show, I knew I was wrong. But I was in such a rage, I didn't feel like correcting myself. I knew someone would call me on it, and figured I'd correct myself when the time came.

Welcome to the forums, by the way.

[mmckellop]

But, DMS even in Doom earliest appearences there exist examples of his misogyny. In his first appearence in FF his captures and tortures Ben, Reed and Johnny and tries to romance Sue. Why? Because he instantly fell in love with a woman he had never met before? or because he wanted to have sex with her as a way of hurting Reed? At the beginning of Mark Waid's first Doom arc he has Doom not only kill his childhood sweetheart, he skins her and wears said skin as his new amour. He possesed Reed's daughter and used magic to melt Sues flesh.

Despite being the head of state of one of the most powerful counties in the MU, he never even attempts to date, which at this point is more of a reflection of his lack of social skills due to his glaring personality flaws than of physical disfigurement.

He has one of the greastest minds in the world. Wealthy beyond imagining and yet, in all these years his never gotten plastic surgerie?

Come on.

This is incredibly isloated man who views women as nothing tools, Means to an end.

Now as for the racism?

I call bullshit. Doom's had his ass handed to him a number of times by various black superhero's( By Luke Cage for not paying up on a debt, Storm after her captured and tortured the X-men etc) and not once did he ever display the racist tendencies he did in BP #19.

I wonder if Hudlin will write a one shot with the FF and Doom wherein Doom makes anti-semtic joke's at The Thing's expense. He does love his retcon's.

I bet if asked Hudlin would that Doom's remarks were made as way to get a rise out of BP, which is kinda weak in and of itself as BP is African, not African American.

[Missy]

But, DMS even in Doom earliest appearences there exist examples of his misogyny. In his first appearence in FF his captures and tortures Ben, Reed and Johnny and tries to romance Sue. Why? Because he instantly fell in love with a woman he had never met before? or because he wanted to have sex with her as a way of hurting Reed?

Sue being held hostage was necessary to advance Lee's story. In FF#5 Doom sent the three male members of the team back in time to plunder Blackbeard's treasure. They disguised themselves as pirates to achieve this goal. Had Sue gone with:

01. The story would have been over too soon, because she could have turned invisible and snatched the treasure sight unseen. There goes half the issue.

02. Had she gone back and not used her powers (which just wouldn't have made sense, since the other three did), she most likely wouldn't have wound up on the ship. The real pirates wouldn't have allowed a woman onboard.

And I don't recall Doom attempting to romance Sue, 'least not in that issue. Namor did before this; are you confusing the two?

At the beginning of Mark Waid's first Doom arc he has Doom not only kill his childhood sweetheart, he skins her and wears said skin as his new amour. He possesed Reed's daughter and used magic to melt Sues flesh.

Violence towards women is not necessarily misogyny. One has to hate women, despise them, to be a misogynist. Additionally, misogynists believe that women are present to serve men and nothing more. If violence towards women noted misogyny, nearly every male comic book character would be guilty.

Despite being the head of state of one of the most powerful counties in the MU, he never even attempts to date, which at this point is more of a reflection of his lack of social skills due to his glaring personality flaws than of physical disfigurement.

Doom has pretty much always been asexual, which can be attributed to his singlemindedness. Plus, Doom with a girlfriend / wife doesn't work. That's like Batman being married.

He has one of the greastest minds in the world. Wealthy beyond imagining and yet, in all these years his never gotten plastic surgerie?

Though this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I always presumed he wears his scars (and therefore mask) as a constant reminder of his hatred of Reed Richards.

This is incredibly isloated man who views women as nothing tools, Means to an end.

Doom uses everyone and everything as tools: the Thing, Silver Surfer, Namor, the Invisible Woman, Beyonder, Doctor Strange, the monks, Luke Cage, his pre-armor girlfriend, Reed, Johnny, Mjolnir, etc.

Now as for the racism?

I call bullshit. Doom's had his ass handed to him a number of times by various black superhero's( By Luke Cage for not paying up on a debt, Storm after her captured and tortured the X-men etc) and not once did he ever display the racist tendencies he did in BP #19.

I wonder if Hudlin will write a one shot with the FF and Doom wherein Doom makes anti-semtic joke's at The Thing's expense. He does love his retcon's.

Please don't give him any ideas!

I bet if asked Hudlin would that Doom's remarks were made as way to get a rise out of BP, which is kinda weak in and of itself as BP is African, not African American.

A subsequent reread of BP#19 put that idea into my head, but, yeah, it's weak. Especially when you consider that Doom actually complimented (albeit in a backhanded manner) T'Challa's mental prowess.

[Jacobi]

Not caring is a completely different matter, and is justified. If the titular character of a book you were not reading died and it had zero impact on books and characters you did care about, would you suddenly care about said character's passing?

Honestly, I would. I'm of the school that characters should die, but only in cases were it is called for. Even if they all eventually come back. If you listen closely you can hear the pitter patter of Barry Allen or the swosh of Conner Keny on the wind . I am not about characters being killed off just because a writer doesn't know what to do with them or they don't have a place in the universe anymore. I've seen too many great characters revitalized to ever write someone off entirely. Hell, Speedball was a joke six months ago, now look at him.

More to your question though, I'm very anti iconic characters getting offed. In my eyes I view Black Panther as every bit important as most popular marvel characters to that universe. Now, he might not be as popular as the popular characters, but still important in the workings of the MU. Very much like Black Bolt is. If Black Bolt were killed, I would care, even though I don't really follow his story. These types of characters have such rich histories and importance that I like to know they're around. I even cared about the "death" of Donna Troy and I wasn't reading (or read in the past) Titans. This could be just because I'm a big softy, but I do take notice when "big" or "semi big" characters are offed, especially when they have lengthy histories.

I guess I was confused because I thought I remember you saying you've read, and liked, the Black Panther run done by Chris Priest. So I was a little taken aback by how quick you wrote the character off. It takes a lot more than a bad issue, or bad run of comics, for me to stop caring about characters. If you just jumped on BP for Civil War purposes, then I see your point better.

For me, the answer is obvious: if I cared about the book and / or character, I'd be reading it. In this case, Reginald Hudlin left such a sour taste in my mouth, that I'll no longer support any book we pens. It's clear to me that instead of creating a real reason for these two kings to fight (such as past interactions, even ones retconned in), he took the lazy way and made Doom a racist. That's just as lazy as saying, "Panther needs a wife. Well, he's black... and Storm's black. Here comes the bride!" Yawn!

That is exactly what you should do. Vote with your wallet and stick to your guns. I won't argue that the "Storm is black, Panther is black...so lets marry them!" may have been lazy, but I really do wish it works out. It didn't develop naturally, like say Kitty and Colossus, but in the hands of a good writer I think they can be nearly every bit the power couple that Reed and Sue are. Of course, the X-Office will come calling back for their girl in a year or two, so fat chance of that happening, right?

Again, I never -- not once -- wished them dead. I said, "I don't care" if they die. And I am upset with the writer, not the characters. Whatever faith I had in Hudlin has been lost.

It's a little hard to think you aren't upset with the characters (even a little) when you say "Yeah, he and Storm are gonna get a divorce, and they're both gonna die terrible, horrible deaths by the end of the year. I don't care!". But if you say you aren't I won't argue with you.

Welcome to the forums, by the way.

Happy to be here.

BTW - I dig how the quoting system works on this board. It's quite nifty.

[Missy]

Not caring is a completely different matter, and is justified. If the titular character of a book you were not reading died and it had zero impact on books and characters you did care about, would you suddenly care about said character's passing?

Honestly, I would. I'm of the school that characters should die, but only in cases were it is called for. Even if they all eventually come back. If you listen closely you can hear the pitter patter of Barry Allen or the swosh of Conner Keny on the wind . I am not about characters being killed off just because a writer doesn't know what to do with them or they don't have a place in the universe anymore. I've seen too many great characters revitalized to ever write someone off entirely. Hell, Speedball was a joke six months ago, now look at him.

More to your question though, I'm very anti iconic characters getting offed. In my eyes I view Black Panther as every bit important as most popular marvel characters to that universe. Now, he might not be as popular as the popular characters, but still important in the workings of the MU. Very much like Black Bolt is. If Black Bolt were killed, I would care, even though I don't really follow his story. These types of characters have such rich histories and importance that I like to know they're around. I even cared about the "death" of Donna Troy and I wasn't reading (or read in the past) Titans. This could be just because I'm a big softy, but I do take notice when "big" or "semi big" characters are offed, especially when they have lengthy histories.

That's where we differ then. And maybe it's because comic book deaths are so damn cheap nowadays. Because anyone can be brought back and because a good writer can even make Uncle Ben's return a truly moving experience, I just don't care when characters I don't care about die.

Some would say killing characters robs future readers from experiencing the joys of, to use your example, Black Bolt. I disagree. That's what back issues and trades and Essentials and Showcases are for. And like I said, a good writer can always bring a dead character back and have it make sense, such as Bucky.

On the other hand, I'm not saying we should kill characters all willy-nilly. Quite the opposite really. Deaths should make sense and serve the overall story, book and universe. Example: Colossus' death, while not in battle, made so much sense it hurt, and it altered the Marvel Universe. He sacrificed himself to cure the Legacy Virus, but he did that because his sister died from said illness. Because of that selflessness, mutants and humans no longer needed to worry about dying from the LV. It changed everything.

Likewise, Superboy's death saved the entire DC Universe. Sure, rumor has it DC killed Kon-El because of a lawsuit with Jerry Siegel's heirs, but that doesn't diminish the impact it's had on Robin, Wonder Girl, the Teen Titans and the future of the DCU.

Conversely, look at Superman's death. It was a marketing ploy, plain and simple. Everyone knew DC would bring him back sooner rather than later. Worse, it didn't serve anything. It didn't end his epic feud with Lex Luthor, it didn't alter the lives of his friends and allies -- nothing came of it, save the creation of Kon-El.

I guess I was confused because I thought I remember you saying you've read, and liked, the Black Panther run done by Chris Priest. So I was a little taken aback by how quick you wrote the character off. It takes a lot more than a bad issue, or bad run of comics, for me to stop caring about characters. If you just jumped on BP for Civil War purposes, then I see your point better.

It's not so much a bad issue that turns me off, it's not paying respect to the characters and fans. That's what happened here: Hudlin ignored Doom's history and wrote his own in because he seemingly didn't know how else to vilify Doom.

This recently happened to me with Robin. When the current writer, Adam Beechen, did what he did (spoiler-free!) in his first storyline, I nearly pissed my pants with anger. In one stupid, disrespectful move he destroyed a character who had worked so very hard to not become the villain Beechen wrote him / her as. I stuck with that book, however, because I'm vested in Robin.

Black Panther, not so much... which is what I've been saying all along.

As for Priest's run, yeah, I enjoyed what I read of it, but it didn't make me love the character enough to stick with him through thick and thin.

I won't argue that the "Storm is black, Panther is black...so lets marry them!" may have been lazy, but I really do wish it works out. It didn't develop naturally, like say Kitty and Colossus, but in the hands of a good writer I think they can be nearly every bit the power couple that Reed and Sue are. Of course, the X-Office will come calling back for their girl in a year or two, so fat chance of that happening, right?

If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. If they're still married in 10 years, which I doubt for the exact same reason you mentioned (RE: X-office), then we'll see if they've become a power couple. Right now, with the way Panther was berating her, I don't see it happening.

It's a little hard to think you aren't upset with the characters (even a little) when you say "Yeah, he and Storm are gonna get a divorce, and they're both gonna die terrible, horrible deaths by the end of the year. I don't care!". But if you say you aren't I won't argue with you.

It's the way they were handled, all of 'em, that's all.

[Darque Edge]

I was annoyed by exactly the same thing in BP - It's feeling hugely as if Hudlin only has one story, which is about racism. It was feeling tenuous in New Orleans where we had Panther teaming with Blade and Cage - just felt slightly overdone at that point.