Episode 315

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Dan and Mike present another installment of Waiting for the Trade, and this time they discuss world-destroying monsters (Hulk: World War Hulk), vampire-slaying vampire slayers (Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Time of Your Life) and Nazi-punching robots (Atomic Robo: Dogs of War). [ 45:29 || 21.2 MB ]

The above is from: http://www.earth-2.net/theshow/episodes/e2ts_315.mp3

[Missy]

Okay, so here's the problem I had with the resolution of Atomic Robo: Dogs of War: it didn't bother me that

the Nazi guy got away, 'cause that could lead to a sequel.

What bothered me is that the main storyline was resolved in a short backup story

set 40+ years later. Are you telling me Robo didn't hunt that guy down after all the shit he pulled in WWII?

[Koete]

The back-up felt like it was supposed to have a lot of weight to it, but just fell flat.

[Dread]

I'm interested to hear this one as Mike and my treatment of the first issue of Dogs of War started...controversy.

Interested to hear how it panned out. The third volume of AR is a Lovecraft story. Should be awesomeness!

[Sn4tcH]

I feel the same way about their review of Buffy as I did about their Batman RIP review. I disagree with Mike's "hand holding" thing. You can't expect to start watching your first episode of Lost in season 5 and expect to know what's going on. And you can't walk into the middle of a story and expect someone to hold your hand. If you want to know what's going on, read the whole story. Don't come out and tell me Two Towers confused you when never read Fellowship, or how Return of the Jedi made no sense because you didn't watch Empire.

I know a good writer can bring a new reader into the middle of a story softly. I think Geoff Johns is good at this. But I also think stories like Buffy Season 8 and Batman RIP were SO MUCH MORE rewarding because I had been reading since the beginning. The stories are going full steam, there's no way to slow down, and you just have to get out of the way.

[Koete]

That is exactly what R.I.P. was, a culmination of everything Morrison had been doing on the title and as someone who read his whole run, I agree that it was extremely rewarding. The problem was, DC didn't market it as such.

[Sn4tcH]

Totally! Yes.

Asking to be hand held into RIP is kind of like walking into the last ten minutes of the Sixth Sense and then complaining because the story made no sense.

But this is about Buffy! I recently watch all 7 seasons of Buffy (and all 5 of Angel) for the first time just so I could read Season 8. So, perhaps I go above and beyond the call of duty? Most people would just read the Wiki entry to get caught up, not me though, I want the experience.

[Missy]

Going into any long-running comic, I understand I might not fully grasp the subtle character dynamics, that some jokes will go over my head, and certain subplots will leave me curious. But that doesn't mean the writer should neglect new readers when it comes to such things. One or two lines of exposition will do the trick.

Now, the story: yes, we're coming into the "eighth season," but this is a book with a beginning, middle and end. Did the characters and world exist beforehand? Yes. Will their stories continue afterward? Yes. But the volume itself should feel like a complete, satisfying story. Anyone should be able to pick it up, understand what's going on and enjoy it. That's the point. This missed the point.

[Dread]

Going into any long-running comic, I understand I might not fully grasp the subtle character dynamics, that some jokes will go over my head, and certain subplots will leave me curious. But that doesn't mean the writer should neglect new readers when it comes to such things. One or two lines of exposition will do the trick.

Now, the story: yes, we're coming into the "eighth season," but this is a book with a beginning, middle and end. Did the characters and world exist beforehand? Yes. Will their stories continue afterward? Yes. But the volume itself should feel like a complete, satisfying story. Anyone should be able to pick it up, understand what's going on and enjoy it. That's the point. This missed the point.

I agree with Mike. Each and every story arc should be self-sufficient regardless of where it fits in contnuity. Just because it was season 8, it doesn't matter. You can pick up a new trade of FF and grab it right away when it is basically in season 48.

RIP, in my opinion, still stands on its own as a story but it is much more rewarding if you have been reading along.

[Sn4tcH]

I wrote a pretty long reply, but it was mostly a bunch of analogies and stuff. As I finished it up, I kind of realized it's one of those "our opinions are just REALLY different" situations. I just totally disagree with the idea of "hand holding", but I realize if someone doesn't like something simply because they didn't like it... then they didn't like it. I just feel like if I'm reading a comic, and it's obvious that I'm not going to get it because I haven't read a previous storyline, I read the previous story. But that's me. I'm the guy who bought the Knightsend Batman trade, not realizing that Knightfall happened first, but being poor and young I was unable to pick up Knightfall for months. So Knightsend collected dust until I could read Knightfall...

Of course, had I known Knightfall/Knightsend sucked before hand, I wouldn't have read it at all.

[Missy]

That's fine if you have the time, money and desire, but we're not doing that. We're reviewing one book, not all of the trades (or episodes) that came before. Personally, I think it's a cop-out to say we didn't like it because we don't know the rich history of the franchise. This story wasn't any good, no matter how you slice it. The plot was thin, the B story came out of (and went) nowhere, the witty dialog didn't work, and I really didn't care about the characters.

[Stavros]

I can agree that handholding with something like FF where there are only about 8 people alive who read it from the start is a good idea, but frankly this is the spinoff comic of a TV show. They aren't looking to expand the audience, they just want to capitalize on existing demand. What is a first time reader doing picking up a tie in to a dead TV show they never watched? If I hand someone who's never watch Trek a copy of Ashes of Eden and they are confused I shouldn't be surprised, its not meant for them. Its there for the existing audience.

I'll admit this though, the time of my life arc was a let down. I'm more accepting of the the constant jokes because I'm a long time fan and I hear them in they way they intended, but the actual plot was disappointing. Fray was the first comic Joss wrote back when Buffy was still on the air and was really really damn good. This just wasn't on the same level, it was too haphazard to present the sort of consistent plot elements that would engage the reader.

Oh and Sn4tch, Knightfall/Knightsend ruled.

[Missy]

I never said I wanted my hand held throughout the book. If I recall, I said I wanted "some handholding," just a little exposition to help guide me through.

[Sn4tcH]

That's fine if you have the time, money and desire, but we're not doing that. We're reviewing one book, not all of the trades (or episodes) that came before. Personally, I think it's a cop-out to say we didn't like it because we don't know the rich history of the franchise. This story wasn't any good, no matter how you slice it. The plot was thin, the B story came out of (and went) nowhere, the witty dialog didn't work, and I really didn't care about the characters.

Sad part is, even though I'm arguing, I totally agreed with you. The story wasn't good, that's why I said, if you don't like, then you just don't like it. If a story sucks it sucks, and this story... well it wasn't good.