Justice Society of America


Dread

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With all the talk of Justice League I thought I'd ask about the elder statesmen.

I followed JSA when I lived abroad because I wanted to try something new. I went back and got all the trades too. I fell away from it just before Infinite Crisis.

The new series is the best book DC has published in years. It's written for the trade but there's so much story packed into each issue it makes Justice League of America 1-6 look like a filler issue in comparison.

I looooooove Dale Eaglesham's artwork too. It seems Johns has lightened his workload after finishing 52 and really gone into overdrive with this series.

It's brilliant and it's the only DC book you need to read.

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I disagree on every level, and #4 might be the last issue I buy for a while. Yeah, the four-issue story had it's moments (usually in the form of Starman), but overall it was only so-so.

What really turned me off of the book was Dale Eaglesham's art. It's very clunky and hard to follow. I mean, look at Cyclone; sometimes she looks 15-ish, and other times like she's in her early 20s. It's confusing. Then there's the way he draws speedsters. Motion is indicated by short speed lines, but the rest of their bodies are as stiff as a board. Compare that to the way he drew the elder Wildcat tackling Vandal Savage from behind. That is motion, and was an awesome moment because there was so much emotion involved! You can feel the THUD as the two men collide. Why isn't that kind of life and energy injected into Flash and Cyclone? Why do they feel flat?

I also take issue with the language and violence in JSA. I've always felt that the title should have a retro (RE: 1940s and 50s) vibe, especially in terms of language. No, I don't want everyone to be "chums" and "old pals," but "bitch" and "bastard" are not welcome in any JSA comic I want to read. Same with the violence: women and children being torn in half... really? That's how DC wants to represent a book with such heritage? At the end of the day it seems forced, like they're trying too hard to make the book hip. I thought the new DCU was supposed to be fun and cheery? This isn't.

Look... I don't mean to be a prude, 'cause I'm not, I just think JSA should be a fun read. In my estimation, filling it with brooding characters and violent content isn't how the book should be presented.

(On a side note, anyone else notice that Cyclone isn't wearing panties on the cover to JSA #2? While my hormones don't mind :happy:, again, it feels out of place and forced. "Here, kids. Have some sex with your swearing and bloody bodies!")

I'll give it another shot after the JSA / JLA crossover. Maybe by then a new artist will come aboard.

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And I'll disagree with that. This is not a retro book. This book is the elder statesmen of the DCU involved in the modern world in the only way they know how, recruiting and training new heroes. I haven't read #4 yet but I haven't been as excited for a non-event book in a while. Wildcat, Alan Scott and Jay Garrick are three of the most compelling characters in the DCU and they, along with Mr. Terrific, are being made A listers with this book. Thanks God for that! Justice League was plodding, sloppy and ridiculously drawn out. I got my money's worth with the Society's books and that is saying something these days.

Complaining about blood and violence in this book is along the same lines as blood and violence in a Captain America book. You don't seem to mind that.

I have a major soft spot for Eaglesham but I do understand that art style can be debated back and forth without any conclusion so I'll leave it at that.

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And I'll disagree with that. This is not a retro book.

I'm not saying it should be set during World War II (though that would be nice), but I personally feel it should have a retro vibe. A certain wholesomeness if you will. Filling it with blood and vulgarity doesn't work for me. Nearly every instance of violence in these first four issues (save the Wildcats / Vandal Savage fight) felt excessive, like it was there for SHOCK~ value. Would I say this if it were another comic? Depends on the comic, really (and we'll get to that in a minute).

This book is the elder statesmen of the DCU involved in the modern world in the only way they know how, recruiting and training new heroes.

That's my point exactly! Since these guys have been around for decades, fighting crime since before these kids were born, they should be teaching the youngsters a thing or two about how to conduct themselves in public. And I'm serious about that. Yelling at police officers, mouthing off to other heroes, cursing, throwing cars and all that should not be tolerated by the founding fathers of the JSA family.

If Johns eventually makes a story point out of what I outlined above, great! If he glosses over it and the heroes continue to act as such, my money won't be spent on future issues.

I haven't read #4 yet but I haven't been as excited for a non-event book in a while. Wildcat, Alan Scott and Jay Garrick are three of the most compelling characters in the DCU and they, along with Mr. Terrific, are being made A listers with this book.

On Wildcat we agree. Johns did a terrific job making me care about him. For that I give him credit. The other three you named... I don't see the appeal nor would I call them "A-listers" thanks to this book. They were just sort of there.

Thanks God for that! Justice League was plodding, sloppy and ridiculously drawn out. I got my money's worth with the Society's books and that is saying something these days.

Can't comment about the current JLA storyline, but, again, I will give Johns credit for keeping the JSA story moving and building the team rather quickly. It's the story around the team building that did nothing for me (RE: Nazis destroying a picnic, Mr. America doing a whole lot of nothing), the violence and language we've spoken about (and will again in a second) and the lifeless art combined to form a rather flat, ho-hum reading experience.

Do I regret having spent the money? No, not really. I've read worse and there were some choice spots (i.e. Wildcats v Vandal Savage, Starman), but I found nothing remarkable about it.

Complaining about blood and violence in this book is along the same lines as blood and violence in a Captain America book. You don't seem to mind that.

Don't let the costumes fool you: Captain America is about terrorism, war and global politics. Blood and violence makes sense in the overall context of the characters' world. JSA is about legacy. Family. Superheroes. Violence on the level we saw it at doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things, and this isn't the first time Johns has used gore on this level (RE: Infinite Crisis). If he used it once in a while or it made sense in the world / story, I'd relent, but I just don't feel it fits in this world and comic.

What it boils down to is that my personal view of JSA does not match what they're doing with the book. I want to like it, especially since I dig Wildcat, Doctor Mid-Nite, Starman and Power Girl, but the book is never able to grab me.

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What it boils down to is that my personal view of JSA does not match what they're doing with the book. I want to like it, especially since I dig Wildcat, Doctor Mid-Nite, Starman and Power Girl, but the book is never able to grab me.

But they were both in WW2! More likely, they killed more nazis than the Invaders!

I thought the team-building was great seeming as all of those villains were out to extinguish legacies. They were protecting the legacies of their brothers who have been lost over the years. There's nothing dishonourable about that.

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What it boils down to is that my personal view of JSA does not match what they're doing with the book. I want to like it, especially since I dig Wildcat, Doctor Mid-Nite, Starman and Power Girl, but the book is never able to grab me.

But they were both in WW2! More likely, they killed more nazis than the Invaders!

What they once were doesn't matter, because we're talking about what they are now. Captain America is a book about global politics, war, intrigue, terrorism. It wouldn't make sense for his world to be covered in a sheen.

On the other hand, JSA is a superhero book. It's built on family and legacies. There should be a certain wholesome charm throughout, even in the violence. Dark moments should be used sparingly. When a story calls for extra violence, it should be used to drive a point home. Here, there was no point. It was excessive violence for the sake of excessive violence. We understand that Nazis are bad. We don't need to see them rip people in half on-panel to remind us, "Oh yeah! Nazis suck!"

I thought the team-building was great seeming as all of those villains were out to extinguish legacies. They were protecting the legacies of their brothers who have been lost over the years. There's nothing dishonourable about that.

Protecting your own is an honorable trait. I never said otherwise. It's the execution which bothered me. Too many characters were introduced too quickly. Adding two or three characters over the course of these four issues would have been perfect. But Johns brought in Cyclone, a new Wildcat, a new Starman, Damage, a new Mr. America and Nathan Heywood (a new Commander Steel, perhaps). That's six new additions to an already robust roster. Not only did new readers have to acclimate themselves to the mainstays, but also these new heroes. It was a bit much.

So while I give Johns credit for establishing the team quickly, some of these new members could have been introduced down the line.

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I don't know. I just prefer to learn more about characters as time moves on. I'm thinking he'll develop them and I trust that. I am sick of "My name is Super Dingo and I have a super baby eating power ever since I was bitten by a genetically engineered dingo. But really I'm a softy at heart."

That's why I don't read Claremont actually.

The wholesomeness? Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that kids are actually reading this book. I enjoy seeing super Nazis tearing innocent people apart. It makes the Nazi-smashing that much more fun.

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The wholesomeness? Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that kids are actually reading this book.

Never said anything about kids reading JSA. (Well, I guess I did say, "Here, kids...," but that was meant loosely in reference to all readers.) I'm talking about me and what I want to read.

Look, I'm pushing 30. I've been reading comics since 1982 or 83. The bulk of the comics I've read were created post-Watchmen / The Dark Knight Returns, so during the so-called Dark Age of Comics. I've read so many grim and gritty "I'm gonna kick your teeth so far down your throat you'll be eating with your ass" stories in the last 20 years that it would be nice to read a wholesome in-continuity comic book once in a while. JSA is perfect for that but Johns and DC seem content with its violent nature, so I'm voting with my dollars. No more JSA for this reader until Johns brings a lighthearted tone to the book, and / or Eaglesham is replaced by someone with a lively style. As I said before, maybe I'll give it a try after the JLA crossover, but I don't know. It's really going to boil down to style and tone for me.

I enjoy seeing super Nazis tearing innocent people apart. It makes the Nazi-smashing that much more fun.

Johns is better than that, though! Nazis? Today? Come on, there are better villains out there. Using Nazis in the here and now smacks of laziness. I see Nazis and I automatically think the writer couldn't be arsed to develop a villain, so he opted to use a universally hated stereotype.

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Ok, I get what you're saying but whjy not use villains already established in the universe and already linked to Vandal Savage historically? I kind of prefer that. Make up a big bad too. That's cool. But I enjoy the in-continuity stuff. DCs got loads of great villains that go unused so why not brush em off?

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Linked or not to Savage, Nazis used in the modern day are trite. Had Johns used WWII as a backdrop for this very story, I wouldn't complain about the presence of bland Nazis because they obviously make sense to that world. But using them nowadays make me think the writer was slacking off, especially when you consider all of the great villains out there. Look at how well they've been developed. Yet this is what Johns used to reintroduce the Justice Society of America. Lame.

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I like it, I like the storylines they've laid out, I like the notion of legacies, I like the artwork, and anytime someone wants to use Nazis I'm down with that. Why have ordinary goons with no heat when you can get instant cheap heat with the Nazis?

I like this book a lot right now.

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Why have ordinary goons with no heat when you can get instant cheap heat with the Nazis?

Because it's cheap.

I'm not saying Johns should have used "ordinary goons" in the story; I simply feel there are better villains Johns could have employed. Does the JSA have an enemy team to oppose them? If so, why not use them instead of Nazis? (Yes, I realize the Nazis were a team, but they were still freaking Nazis!) Or why not create a new team to rival the Society? Hell, Savage alone could have been the villain, like Doom is to the FF.

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Why have ordinary goons with no heat when you can get instant cheap heat with the Nazis?

Because it's cheap.

I'm not saying Johns should have used "ordinary goons" in the story; I simply feel there are better villains Johns could have employed. Does the JSA have an enemy team to oppose them? If so, why not use them instead of Nazis? (Yes, I realize the Nazis were a team, but they were still freaking Nazis!) Or why not create a new team to rival the Society? Hell, Savage alone could have been the villain, like Doom is to the FF.

Doom always uses Doombots to stall whilst his masterplans go into effect. He's usually got backup in some form when he fights them. Since Savage doesn't have bots they needed to create a deadly group who would not only believably slaughter entire families but that would also leave the fans dying to see them get their asses handed to them.

Of course its cheap heat. You think that its easy to get over a bunch of goons in 2-3 issues as the first opponants for the new JSA? If its some new guys then people will be asking who they are and hy they are doing this, and then the savage reveal just adds confusion. If they are Nazis people know not to take them too seriously because there is no way they are going to win any kind of significant Superhero fight in this day and age.

My final word on this subject. Whats the worst Indiana Jones film? Temple of Doom. Why? No Nazis. Nazis = great villians. Its why they are used so much in Hellboy and so much other material. Nazis are the ultimate in cheap disposable hatable goons. Its why Captain Punishers first opponant is Hatemonger.

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Why have ordinary goons with no heat when you can get instant cheap heat with the Nazis?

Because it's cheap.

I'm not saying Johns should have used "ordinary goons" in the story; I simply feel there are better villains Johns could have employed. Does the JSA have an enemy team to oppose them? If so, why not use them instead of Nazis? (Yes, I realize the Nazis were a team, but they were still freaking Nazis!) Or why not create a new team to rival the Society? Hell, Savage alone could have been the villain, like Doom is to the FF.

Doom always uses Doombots to stall whilst his masterplans go into effect. He's usually got backup in some form when he fights them.

When was the last time Doom used bots in a fight? I honestly do not recall. Regardless, I dislike Doombots too. Doom leads a nation. His subjects would willingly fight for him. And you know what? The FF wouldn't want to fight normal people, which, a good writer, could use to his advantage. Imagine the impact it would have on the FF if the media learned they beat up normal people, even to get to Doom. Imagine the heartache Ben would feel having to manhandle powerless folks. The stories write themselves. So yeah, Doombots equal lazy writing too.

Since Savage doesn't have bots they needed to create a deadly group who would not only believably slaughter entire families but that would also leave the fans dying to see them get their asses handed to them.

Of course its cheap heat. You think that its easy to get over a bunch of goons in 2-3 issues as the first opponants for the new JSA? If its some new guys then people will be asking who they are and hy they are doing this, and then the savage reveal just adds confusion. If they are Nazis people know not to take them too seriously because there is no way they are going to win any kind of significant Superhero fight in this day and age.

Savage could have formed a team, a shadowy team at that, which left the JSA on the ropes. I hate to play "armchair writer," but the story would have been better served if the team came together because they had to protect one another from this unknown entity. Not just during this story, but for the foreseeable future. The way it played out made Savage look weak; not only were his Nazis destroyed, he was flattened by a firetruck and his grand scheme helped make the JSA stronger. That's not how you build up a villain or introduce a team.

My final word on this subject. Whats the worst Indiana Jones film? Temple of Doom. Why? No Nazis. Nazis = great villians. Its why they are used so much in Hellboy and so much other material. Nazis are the ultimate in cheap disposable hatable goons. Its why Captain Punishers first opponant is Hatemonger.

Can't comment about Temple of Doom. It's been too long.

Hellboy's Kroenen makes sense because he was a Nazi during WWII that somehow managed to survive to the present day. As I've said all along: I have no problem when Nazis are used during stories set in WWII. And since Hellboy and Kroenen were born (literally and figuratively) during the war, it makes perfect sense for their battle to continue to this day.

The reason this logic doesn't extend to the JSA, who were also born out of WWII, is because these weren't the same Nazis the team fought all those years ago. This isn't Red Skull, Baron Strucker or Baron Heinrich Zemo we're talking about. Johns used neo-Nazis because he knew it would be easy to make readers hate them. But easy isn't always what's best for the story.

It's not that hard to make readers hate a character. Look at Superboy-Prime. All it took was for him to destroy several members of the Teen Titans. A handful of new / non-Nazi characters (or ones we hadn't seen in a while; Johns is good at using those types) could have comprised the bulk of Savage's group. Destroy (but not kill) one longstanding member of the team, and you have instant heat on the group. Imagine if during their quest to eradicate the JSA's legacy the villainous group shattered Jay's legs or Ted's hands. Instant heat. No need for Nazis to tear innocent people in half; hurt the people readers care about. Hurt them hard and readers will have a newfound villain to hate.

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  • 1 month later...

On some level, the use of Nazis makes sense because early JSA history is tied to the Nazis. Including Nazis would have made more sense, though, had the Nazis had a motivation to get even with the JSA because the JSA helped the Allies win the war. You could have done that without Vandal Savage.

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Also, I had no idea who Damage was, and had to do some research to figure it out. At first, I thought Atom Smasher had a new name, a new costume and some new powers.

I assume his face was destroyed in Infinite Crisis #1, but there is nothing in that issue to suggest that the Reverse-Flash destroyed Damage's face.

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  • 6 months later...

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