Episode 10


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Before anyone asks, there's a reason we're only going to cover three episodes next time (as mentioned at the end of this episode). If we review our standard five episodes, the list would be:

- Harley and Ivy

- Shadow of the Bat

- Blind as a Bat

- The Demon's Quest

- His Silicon Soul

Both Shadow of the Bat and The Demon's Quest are two-part episodes. Generally speaking, we spend 20-30-ish minutes per episode, and 45-60-ish per two-parter. That would make episode 11 at least two and a half hours long. And I stress at least, because I guarantee we'll have at lot to say about The Demon's Quest. (Truth be told, we could probably do an entire episode about that one.) While I'm no stranger to long podcasts, neither of us has the time to record an extra-long episode of WFP.

That said, episode 11 will see us cover:

- Harley and Ivy

- Shadow of the Bat

- Blind as a Bat

And in episode 12 we'll go back to our normal format:

- The Demon's Quest

- His Silicon Soul

- Fire From Olympus

- Read My Lips

- The Worry Men

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Did we really need to bring up War Games..........ugh. worst story ever. You guys will be happy to know that the Leslie Thompkins incident has since been retconned but that still dosen't erase that the comic was published in the first place. In relation to Thompkins characterization i didn't find her to be out of character. Just because she is portrayed a certain way in a recent comic like No Man's Land (a bad comic nonetheless) dosen't mean that's the way she was always portrayed and i don't think the episode should be held accountable for that especially considering that the comic you mentioned was published many, many years after the episode in question was made. It should also be noted that Paging The Crime Doctor is an adaptation of Detective Comics #579 entitled "The Crime Doctor's Crimson Clinic" written by Mike W. Barr and illustrated by Norm Breyfogle, and it's an excellent adaptation at that.

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Did we really need to bring up War Games..........ugh. worst story ever. You guys will be happy to know that the Leslie Thompkins incident has since been retconned but that still dosen't erase that the comic was published in the first place.

Is Leslie back, and how was it retconned out?

What's important is not the comic James mentioned or when it was published, but that she's always been a pacifist. So for her to say she's going to knock someone's brains out is a bit startling.

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Whoa, over 2 minutes! I definitely won't be able to finish it tonight.

I also thought that Yuro Sensei didn't know, but maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention. Maybe you're right.

I still think that Francine was being completely irrational and ridiculous, despite the case the e-mail makes.

Say what you will about 'Joker's Wild', and I can agree to some extent, but 'The Laughing Fish' is still one of the series' finest episodes no matter what anyone says. It captures the character of the Joker perfectly, the Batman/Joker dynamic is at its finest, the score adds a level of creepiness to it, the humor is topnotch, and the pacing is excellent.

Completely agreed about Jack Napier, though. That's why I'm glad 'Beware the Creeper' makes it clear that he was a nameless hit-man.

I agree about 'The Zeta Project' and that you shouldn't review it, mainly because I haven't seen it nor care to see it, so I'd have to wait forever to be able to listen to the podcast again. Same goes for 'Static Shock'. Like her, I don't mind 'Teen Titans' being reviewed, because it's a great show, even though I don't think it's part of the universe at all.

I'm pretty neutral on the whole Wiki thing, as I don't use the BTAS pages for anything, as I'm not as interested in easter eggs and references so much as reviews, which are my favorite BTAS-related stuff on the internet.

The Man Who Killed Batman- One of my favorites. It's not only hilarious, but the Joker reaction to the ordeal so perfectly embodies the Batman/Joker dynamic. I'm glad you're liking it so far, although I definitely like it better than 'Almost Got 'Im'. This episode, for me, is one of the series' top five greatest episodes. I love listening to you guys just reminiscing on all the funny moments in the episode and just laughing yourselves silly.

The peanut bowl scene is hilarious, but the character's pose and his facial expressions add so much to it.

I think that Bullock has a deep respect for Batman. They have their own personal grudges, but they each fully respect what the other does. Batman disagrees with Bullock's methods, but he genuinely appreciates him (as evidenced by 'Vendetta'), and I assume it's the same way with Bullock. And even if he would rather have Batman off the streets, I don't think he would prefer that happening by means of death. As much as he dislikes Batman, I don't see him taking any pleasure in any person's death, even if it is Batman.

I love the subpoena joke. And I do think that at this point Harleen Quinzel wasn't intended as her real identity.

I definitely think this is Hamill's best performance. You should check out the book 'Batman Animated'. You can see Bruce Timm's original storyboards for the eulogy. Great stuff.

And no, 'The Laughing Fish' is the first to capture his psyche. 'The Man Who Killed Batman' is the second. In my opinion, anyway.

I'm stopping here for the night.

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I agree about 'The Zeta Project' and that you shouldn't review it, mainly because I haven't seen it nor care to see it, so I'd have to wait forever to be able to listen to the podcast again. Same goes for 'Static Shock'. Like her, I don't mind 'Teen Titans' being reviewed, because it's a great show, even though I don't think it's part of the universe at all.

The Zeta Project only lasted 25 episodes, so that's five episodes of WFP. On the other hand, Static Shock had 52, so that's 10 episodes of WFP. And I know people aren't going to like it, but we're covering all of the DCAU. Since they're both part of it, they get covered.

And even if he would rather have Batman off the streets, I don't think he would prefer that happening by means of death. As much as he dislikes Batman, I don't see him taking any pleasure in any person's death, even if it is Batman.

True.

And no, 'The Laughing Fish' is the first to capture his psyche. 'The Man Who Killed Batman' is the second. In my opinion, anyway.

Did he toss her around in that one? I can't recall. It's one thing to yell at someone; it's a whole other beast to throw and hit them.

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I just wanted to say, my interpretation of seeing Killer Croc in the background getting into a fight is that this is when Batman "replaces" him. In other words, up unti this point, it is actually Killer Croc sitting at the Rogue's card table, but after the background fight, we have Batman impersonating Killer Croc, and thus Batman/Croc's "I threw a rock at him". I have always believed this, and I even think Timm refers to it as such in the commentary for the episode.

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I just wanted to say, my interpretation of seeing Killer Croc in the background getting into a fight is that this is when Batman "replaces" him. In other words, up unti this point, it is actually Killer Croc sitting at the Rogue's card table, but after the background fight, we have Batman impersonating Killer Croc, and thus Batman/Croc's "I threw a rock at him". I have always believed this, and I even think Timm refers to it as such in the commentary for the episode.

Very interesting theory! Though there's a problem with it: had Ivy not kicked Croc out of the chair, Batman never could have replaced him. So the sting relied on Croc, at some point, leaving the table. That's too much to risk to not replace him before the card game.

Also, Timm mentions the guy getting tossed in the background, but he never says that's when Batman becomes Croc. Maybe he does elsewhere, in an interview or a book, but not on the commentary.

Welcome to the boards, by the way!

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I just wanted to say, my interpretation of seeing Killer Croc in the background getting into a fight is that this is when Batman "replaces" him. In other words, up unti this point, it is actually Killer Croc sitting at the Rogue's card table, but after the background fight, we have Batman impersonating Killer Croc, and thus Batman/Croc's "I threw a rock at him". I have always believed this, and I even think Timm refers to it as such in the commentary for the episode.

Very interesting theory! Though there's a problem with it: had Ivy not kicked Croc out of the chair, Batman never could have replaced him. So the sting relied on Croc, at some point, leaving the table. That's too much to risk to not replace him before the card game.

Also, Timm mentions the guy getting tossed in the background, but he never says that's when Batman becomes Croc. Maybe he does elsewhere, in an interview or a book, but not on the commentary.

Welcome to the boards, by the way!

Thank you! I just liked the idea, but never really thought about the kicking the chair out part...But my answer to the problem is...he's Batman, he would have thought of something else :)

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I really dig the theory because it is a possibility. And despite what I said in the post above, here's a way to make it work: let's say Batman was waiting in the shadows, waiting for one of the criminals to step away from the table, waiting to replace one of them. But then let's say none of them got up, what would he have done? Listened from the shadows, because we all know the egotistical Joker would have eventually revealed his master plan to the rogues anyway. Batman didn't need to be at the table, but one could argue that he seized the opportunity to replace Croc to ensure the conversation went where he wanted it to.

I still think he was Croc all along, but, now that I've typed that out, I wouldn't argue against your idea.

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I think that Bullock has a deep respect for Batman. They have their own personal grudges, but they each fully respect what the other does. Batman disagrees with Bullock's methods, but he genuinely appreciates him (as evidenced by 'Vendetta'), and I assume it's the same way with Bullock. And even if he would rather have Batman off the streets, I don't think he would prefer that happening by means of death. As much as he dislikes Batman, I don't see him taking any pleasure in any person's death, even if it is Batman.

This is pretty how I have looked at Bullock since the beginning. Bullock has the tough-guy image he has to uphold in front of Gordon, Montoya and the department, but deep down, he has a grudging respect for Batman.

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One quick thing to mention un terms of a screwup, Harley was playing Amazing Grace on the kazoo at the funeral, not Taps, btw thank you for adding that entire bit as the audio clip at the end.

Yeah, I figured out my mistake too late. When I was ripping the clip from the DVD, I was like, "Oh... that's 'Amazing Grace.' Shit."

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So I got pretty deep into 'Mudslide' last night but most of what I said got deleted; basically, I was saying that I really like 'Mudslide' due to the animation and that I wouldn't let the 'The Man Who Killed Batman' nitpicks get in the way of giving it a perfect score.

Paging the Crime Doctor- I don't like this one. Sure, it's a serious episode with references to Thomas Wayne and everything, but the episode just drags on, the plot is uninteresting; there really isn't much reason to sympathize with Michael Thorne. He's just 'I love being a doctor, but I'm forced to be a criminal. Why me?!'. It's totally unsubtle and melodramatic that it doesn't work. The episode is either some really expository dialogue or it's some brainless 'Batman vs doctors' fight scenes. The great ending just cannot justify the entire episode.

I agree with James on this one, although I did think it was a good ending; the 21 minutes leading up to it just should have been scrapped for something better.

It's STROMWELL! ARNOLD STROMWELL! COME ON, GUYS!

Ha.

Oh..never mind...

Zatanna- Bland. I like that they introduced another DC character, but the plot is just a by-the-numbers 'stop the criminal mastermind' affair that is, quite frankly, boring. And Zatanna is a pretty weak character anyways.

Oh yeah, I have a gift of saying words backwards, so that's why I like Zatanna better than the average comic-book character.

I think Dini fixed up Zatanna in 'This Little Piggy', which I love as well (though a ton of fans really don't like it).

Oh, I actually know the reason they couldn't use fishnets. They are apparently IMPOSSIBLE to animate. To make sure every single line that makes up the fishnets are in the same place in every frame is incredibly hard.

And I agree with your nitpicks for once, especially the survival of the thugs after they fall out of the plane.

And Montague Kane is the poor man's Ras Al Ghul. Ras minus the badassery.

The Mechanic- Another episode I don't like. The only highpoint for me is that this is the last time the animation is done by AKOM, which is the worst animation company ever to work on BTAS. The plot is boring and Earl really isn't an interesting character. They should have used Harold the hunchback.

I do like the old-school Bat-mobile though.

The way the Penguin drives the Bat-mobile is as laughable as the show can possibly get.

And James, the design from Justice League is the same one from Gotham Knights. They never reused the BTAS design after the series ended.

It's cool though if you notice in Batman Beyond, Bruce's car is the original Bat-mobile turned upside-down.

AWESOME catch with the wanted poster.

Scores:

The Man Who Killed Batman: You- 7.5 and a 9 / Me- 10

Mudslide: You- 7.5 and an 8 / Me- 8

Paging the Crime Doctor: You- 4.5 and a 7 / Me- 4

Zatanna: You- 5 and a 6 / Me- 5

The Mechanic: You- 3.5 and a 3 / Me- 4

Awesome. Best ending scene yet. Can't wait till next time. Great job as always.

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And James, the design from Justice League is the same one from Gotham Knights. They never reused the BTAS design after the series ended.

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew that the Justice League version of the Batmobile was different, but I couldn't for the life of me remember what it looked like in Gotham Knights.

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I hate to break it to you fellas, but the reason Joker is done so poorly and so often in TAS is Dini's fault.

An interview with story editor Marty Pasko reveals that Dini was always pushing for Joker to be put in episodes. In fact, the only reason he appears in Mask of the Phantasm is because Dini was entirely responsible for the third act.

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And Dini was an excellent Joker writer so there's really no problem. Joker's first three episodes were awful due to the absence of Dini. Whatever your issues with 'Joker's Wild' (which really isn't that bad) or 'Make 'Em Laugh' (which I'm assuming is pretty disliked), 'Christmas With the Joker', 'Be A Clown', and 'The Last Laugh' are much much worse. Dini churned out every single good Joker appearance: 'The Laughing Fish', 'Joker's Favor', 'The Man Who Killed Batman', 'Harlequinade', and 'Almost Got 'Em'. The good easily outweighs the bad.

I don't think you're right about 'Mask of the Phantasm'. Paul Dini was responsible for the third act, but Joker was present throughout the entire movie, and without the Joker there really wouldn't have been much of a story. I think Alan Burnett, who was really in charge of the story (at least to my recollection) had pushed Joker from the beginning, and assigned Paul to write all the Joker's appearances.

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I don't think you're right about 'Mask of the Phantasm'. Paul Dini was responsible for the third act, but Joker was present throughout the entire movie, and without the Joker there really wouldn't have been much of a story. I think Alan Burnett, who was really in charge of the story (at least to my recollection) had pushed Joker from the beginning, and assigned Paul to write all the Joker's appearances.

Not what the story editor says.

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