Episode 169

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As they review Saw IV, Jenny and Mike explore the two major plot holes in the film, but they aren't what you think. [ 2:02:00 || 55.8 MB ]

The above is from: http://www.earth-2.net/theshow/episodes/e2ts_169.mp3

[James D.]

Well, that was fun.

I can't believe I didn't catch that GARGANTUAN plothole that you talked about, Mike, but I'm glad you did.

[Guest]

Mike is not as special as he thinks.

how about the part at the end when Hoffman does the big reveal, goes to the "SAW 3" part of the warehouse, the other guy that looks exactly like him shoots Jeff (wiki says his name was Strahm), then Hoffman locks Strahm in the room. So... when they found Jigsaw's body, Strahm was suddenly okay with Hoffman, who he KNEW was the bad guy and CLEARLY saw his face, but never bothered to report him? I suppose you could say that while locked in that room, he starved to death, but that would've taken weeks, realistically, and overall, the whole timing of any of this working chronologically on any real level is WAYYYYY too convienent for my tastes.

[James D.]

Mike is not as special as he thinks.

how about the part at the end when Hoffman does the big reveal, goes to the "SAW 3" part of the warehouse, the other guy that looks exactly like him shoots Jeff (wiki says his name was Strahm), then Hoffman locks Strahm in the room. So... when they found Jigsaw's body, Strahm was suddenly okay with Hoffman, who he KNEW was the bad guy and CLEARLY saw his face, but never bothered to report him? I suppose you could say that while locked in that room, he starved to death, but that would've taken weeks, realistically, and overall, the whole timing of any of this working chronologically on any real level is WAYYYYY too convienent for my tastes.

I read that days before I went and saw the movie, so at the time, I had no idea what you were talking about.

[Missy]

Mike is not as special as he thinks.

how about the part at the end when Hoffman does the big reveal, goes to the "SAW 3" part of the warehouse, the other guy that looks exactly like him shoots Jeff (wiki says his name was Strahm), then Hoffman locks Strahm in the room. So... when they found Jigsaw's body, Strahm was suddenly okay with Hoffman, who he KNEW was the bad guy and CLEARLY saw his face, but never bothered to report him? I suppose you could say that while locked in that room, he starved to death, but that would've taken weeks, realistically, and overall, the whole timing of any of this working chronologically on any real level is WAYYYYY too convienent for my tastes.

There were parts of that thread I skimmed. That must have been one of them. But, to make sure you get the proper respect, I'll mention you having caught this during the next show Jen and I record.

[Malpractice]

Well that was kind of a big waste of time for me to listen to considering i hate the Saw franchise but i like to think Mike and Jenny atleast made it an intresting listen.

The only positive thing i think i can say about this franchise is that there is a Helmet song on the soundtrack to Saw 3 lol. Also they assembled a pretty impressive lineup of musicians to do the score for all the films.

[Kscriv]

What in the hell were you using for the transitions in this episode, I KNOW I've heard them before...and they are awesome.

EDIT: Batman Beyond: Mask of the Phantasm....

[Missy]

What in the hell were you using for the transitions in this episode, I KNOW I've heard them before...and they are awesome.

EDIT: Batman Beyond: Mask of the Phantasm....

Oops!

The song was the big reveal song ("Hello, Zepp") from every Saw film.

[Stavros]

Its not unreasonable to assume that Strothm is locked away in some trap even as Hoffman is shown at the end of the film. Its les a plothole and more a "to be resolved", not dissimilar to the end of the Bourne Supremacy in that it could well be taken from the middle of the next film.

You havn't seen The Last Crusade? What are you, averse to seeing Nazis get thier come-uppance? Thats an awesome film! Its got Sean Connery in it!

[Missy]

But therein lies the problem: how did Hoffman get Strahm out before John's body was taken from the room? Strahm had a loaded gun, after all! The second Hoffman opens that door, BANG!

[Stavros]

But therein lies the problem: how did Hoffman get Strahm out before John's body was taken from the room? Strahm had a loaded gun, after all! The second Hoffman opens that door, BANG!

Thats still more of a "To be revealed" based on the criss-crossing timeline for these films. I daresay that might even be a deliberate hook for fans to build hype for Saw V rather than a plot to be filled. I understand your point that it wasn't resolved on film but its much more likely that its a deliberate choice than an oversight.

On top of that it would only need about a week without proper water for the guy to be too dehydrated to fight back. There are a lot of potential explainations and the hook would be people wondering how they are going to resolve that.

[Guest]

That's a cop out though. Since it's a seemingly endless franchise, they're CONSTANTLY granted the "they can explain it later" excuse. That means they can fuck up anything they want as long as it's retconned later.

[Missy]

On top of that it would only need about a week without proper water for the guy to be too dehydrated to fight back. There are a lot of potential explainations and the hook would be people wondering how they are going to resolve that.

Detective Matthews was able to fire a perfect shot into Rigg after being malnourished and tortured for six months. Hell, let's not forget his attempted suicide, the fact that he was hanging from the ceiling while pulling the trigger and that the shot was fired from across a long room. Strahm is in a small room, hasn't been hung or tortured. According to Saw logic, Hoffman will be shot when the door opens.

[chrno_the_sinner]

Ok, so first post here, but I've done some podcasts with Kellen before.

I just watched SAW IV this weekend, After having seen the first three again the Thursday before (but I slept though the first) at a friend's house. My friends enjoy the franchise a lot more than I do, but I think it's still somewhat decent, if only just. Before seeing it, I did read the plot twists, not really intending to see it right away. Knowing the twists (concerning Hoffman and "The-Beginning-Is-The-End" certainly made the movie slightly more enjoyable, especially after seeing SAW III, since this movie is essentially SAW 3.5.

I'm typing this as I listen to the podcast, so bear with my random thoughts...

-Hoffman was definitely obviously one of Jigsaw's apprentices since SAW III. The clues were everywhere in that initial scene.

-Hoffman is holding a doll in the same scene where Rigg is watching the wife interview. Perez (or someone) asks if it's a boy or girl. Hoffman replies it's a girl and Perez says she didn't know he was married. Hoffman says "I'm not. It's a short story", thereby impling that it's for Jeff's daughter, who is most likely still alive, one way or the other. <<--Jeff's Daughter Explained

-Rigg's wife wanted him to take his vacation time and not keep working. There could be implied rifts in the marriage. Rigg refused to take the time off the case because he's still obsessed over finding Mathews.

-I had the same problem with the "Why the hell don't you shoot the hair!" aspect.

-While I don't particularily like John's backstory, I think that he needed a bit of it. He's not the same as Freddy, Jason, et al. He's not just killing to avenge himself. He's killing because he believes he's right in his actions.

-The trap for the fat man was simple. He could either gouge out BOTH his eyes, or his body would be torn apart. Man only got one eye out.

-The pig mask, in retrospect, was completely pointless, and used only for the "becoming Jigsaw" factor.

-Hooker girl who propositions John in the car was the girl in SAW II who was a dumbass and put her hands though the glass trying to get the syringe.

-Jigsaw's motives come clear here. He sees that his wife 'failed' in helping these people, and only they can help themselves.

-Hoffman could have gotten the information for Jigsaw for the pedo Principle. That was also the start of Rigg wanting to bring them to justice, not letting any victim go unsaved.

-Why did Jigsaw know about anatomy? One answer could be Cary Elwes being an apprentice, though that's unlikely.

-Pig mask origin was unneeded.

-Lawyer was shot by Rigg, thinking it was Jigsaw

-Jeff got the gun from his trap, putting it all together. The gun only had one bullet, which was used to kill Amanda.

-Zepp was not an apprentice. He had a poison running though his body.

-Amanda's real test was the entirety of SAW III. The first head trap was not the test. Hoffman could have been tested previously and the real test would be yet to come.

-Hoffman's reaction at the end is part act and part actual surprise about having to be tested.

-Jeff was in a different area at the time of SAW III and came though a second door. The only characters that could've met were Straum and Rigg.

Jen's plot hole

-Amanda could have been outed by Matthew's son, which is the most plausible explanation. Amanda probably injected the son before knocking him out.

Mike's Plot Hole Explained

Straum did not see Hoffman. Hoffman passed by the door and shut and locked it. Straum was likely too preocupied with these dead bodies, one of which is missing half a head, to notice a person passing by closing the door. It is not a lock that could only be opened with a key, as seen when Straum unlocked it before Jeff went crazy on him. The police force was hot on Straum's tail and would've unlocked the door quickly. Hoffman has NO time to remove him from the room at all. Even if the door couldn't have been unlocked, there's still the tool used to open the chain-man's door (welder? blowtorch?) that they could use.

Other notes.

-Perez is likely an apprentice. Note her interpretation of the eye-gouging trap and her 'romanticizing' of the crime. There are also keys. Amanda had one around her neck in SAW III, Perez carried the key Kerri had in her letter, and Hoffman held another key as well, though I don't quite remember where it came from.

My plot hole is different. The rest of the police force are on the way, and Rigg wouldn't die that quickly. They should've found him before he succumbed to his wounds. Also, if it had ended any other way and Matthews would have missed Rigg, Hoffman would have been outed right away.

I did not overly like nor overly dislike this series. SAW IV works mainly as an expansion to SAW III, but not much beyond that. John's backstory was too drawn out for my liking and was certainly my least favourite part of the movie. Still, I like it as a pseudo-intellectual thriller with gore that you can turn your brain off and enjoy. If I were to rate it, it'd be a 2.5-3.0 for me.

Sorry for the overly long and drawn out post I just created.

[Missy]

Ok, so first post here, but I've done some podcasts with Kellen before.

Howdy and welcome!

-Hoffman was definitely obviously one of Jigsaw's apprentices since SAW III. The clues were everywhere in that initial scene.

I'm suggesting since Saw I. But no later than Saw II.

-Hoffman is holding a doll in the same scene where Rigg is watching the wife interview. Perez (or someone) asks if it's a boy or girl. Hoffman replies it's a girl and Perez says she didn't know he was married. Hoffman says "I'm not. It's a short story", thereby impling that it's for Jeff's daughter, who is most likely still alive, one way or the other. <<--Jeff's Daughter Explained

Hmm. Good point.

-Rigg's wife wanted him to take his vacation time and not keep working. There could be implied rifts in the marriage. Rigg refused to take the time off the case because he's still obsessed over finding Mathews.

- She asked him to come along, so I don't see that as a rift. A rift is her leaving in a huff or without asking.

-While I don't particularily like John's backstory, I think that he needed a bit of it. He's not the same as Freddy, Jason, et al. He's not just killing to avenge himself. He's killing because he believes he's right in his actions.

...

-Jigsaw's motives come clear here. He sees that his wife 'failed' in helping these people, and only they can help themselves.

- Freddy and Jason believe they're right, too. Basically it comes down to this: John doesn't want to help these people. What he wants is revenge on society for screwing with his plans / life. The junkies and whores are being killed for putting his wife in danger, and the police for not cleaning the streets. He can ride the moral high horse if he wants, but it all comes down to revenge.

-Hoffman could have gotten the information for Jigsaw for the pedo Principle. That was also the start of Rigg wanting to bring them to justice, not letting any victim go unsaved.

Hoffman might have pegged that as "the beginning," but I still don't buy Rigg instantly knowing that was where he was supposed to go.

-Zepp was not an apprentice. He had a poison running though his body.

I thought Zep helped him in some regard.

-Amanda's real test was the entirety of SAW III. The first head trap was not the test. Hoffman could have been tested previously and the real test would be yet to come.

-Hoffman's reaction at the end is part act and part actual surprise about having to be tested.

- I refuse to believe that Jigsaw would willingly hand his legacy over to someone who hasn't been fully tested. He's too anal for that.

- No. I mark that as poor filmmaking.

-Jeff was in a different area at the time of SAW III and came though a second door. The only characters that could've met were Straum and Rigg.

Do you realize how huge that place would have to be for them not to hear and see each other?

Jen's plot hole

-Amanda could have been outed by Matthew's son, which is the most plausible explanation. Amanda probably injected the son before knocking him out.

Possibly, but doubtful. Whenever someone is abducted, the pig mask is being worn. Why would that abduction have been any different?

Mike's Plot Hole Explained

Straum did not see Hoffman. Hoffman passed by the door and shut and locked it. Straum was likely too preocupied with these dead bodies, one of which is missing half a head, to notice a person passing by closing the door. It is not a lock that could only be opened with a key, as seen when Straum unlocked it before Jeff went crazy on him. The police force was hot on Straum's tail and would've unlocked the door quickly. Hoffman has NO time to remove him from the room at all. Even if the door couldn't have been unlocked, there's still the tool used to open the chain-man's door (welder? blowtorch?) that they could use.

The point remains, the police would have to be inept to not realize Hoffman is the man behind the recent killings. Rigg is dying (dead?) on the floor, Detective Matthews is dead, Art the lawyer is dead, Jigsaw and Amanda are dead. Who's that leave? Oh yeah, Hoffman who was "trapped." Even if he tries to pretend like he escaped the trap, an expert will quickly realize that's impossible. Not only was it not really connected to the electrical source, the trap was triggered (by Detective Matthews). If the trap went off, where's Hoffman's body? See, they better realize Hoffman is the mole by the next picture.

-Perez is likely an apprentice. Note her interpretation of the eye-gouging trap and her 'romanticizing' of the crime. There are also keys. Amanda had one around her neck in SAW III, Perez carried the key Kerri had in her letter, and Hoffman held another key as well, though I don't quite remember where it came from.

If she was with Jigsaw, why did she look into the doll like an idiot?

Still, I like it as a pseudo-intellectual thriller with gore that you can turn your brain off and enjoy.

But that's the thing: it's not intellectual, pseudo-intellectual or anything-intellectual. It thinks it is, but, if it was, it wouldn't have to explain itself by the end.

[chrno_the_sinner]

- She asked him to come along, so I don't see that as a rift. A rift is her leaving in a huff or without asking.

She didn't just ask. She damn well near begged him to tear himself away from the job, which he refused to do.

- Freddy and Jason believe they're right, too. Basically it comes down to this: John doesn't want to help these people. What he wants is revenge on society for screwing with his plans / life. The junkies and whores are being killed for putting his wife in danger, and the police for not cleaning the streets. He can ride the moral high horse if he wants, but it all comes down to revenge.

I agree, and I think it's one of the points the movie tried to show. Jigsaw didn't want to help people from the 'goodness' of his heart. It was to avenge his carefully planned child. The first signs of Jigsaw's corruptness was the first trap in SAW II, the informant, which made no sense.

Hoffman might have pegged that as "the beginning," but I still don't buy Rigg instantly knowing that was where he was supposed to go.

I don't quite either, but I may remember a photo of the principle or something, but that might be the "stylish" flashback scenes, which I dislike as much as anyone.

I thought Zep helped him in some regard.

He helped because that was his test. If he saw it through to the end, Jigsaw would give him the antidote. Which begs the question "Why not go to a hospital." Also, testing one of the only people at the hospital that was nice to you is stupid as well.

- I refuse to believe that Jigsaw would willingly hand his legacy over to someone who hasn't been fully tested. He's too anal for that.

- No. I mark that as poor filmmaking.

-That's a fair assumption to make, and there is the possibility that another apprentice has already been fully tested, and has the necessary mind set to continue the work, and Hoffman is still in need of testing.

Do you realize how huge that place would have to be for them not to hear and see each other?

Well, it is a fairly large building. Jeff was locked away in a different area inside the warehouse. Straum and Rigg had the highest chance of running into each other, but Straum likely headed in a different direction when he heard the gunshot from Amanda and Jeff.

Possibly, but doubtful. Whenever someone is abducted, the pig mask is being worn. Why would that abduction have been any different?

I was referring to the end of SAW II, after Big Scary Black Guy got his throat slashed with the saw. Only Amanda and the son remained. Amanda opened the safe, knowing the combo, and used the syringe on the son. Amanda had the antidote in the first place, since she never looked sick throughout the movie. When Amanda brought the son to Jigsaw's lab to put him in a 'safe place', she wasn't wearing a mask.

The point remains, the police would have to be inept to not realize Hoffman is the man behind the recent killings. Rigg is dying (dead?) on the floor, Detective Matthews is dead, Art the lawyer is dead, Jigsaw and Amanda are dead. Who's that leave? Oh yeah, Hoffman who was "trapped." Even if he tries to pretend like he escaped the trap, an expert will quickly realize that's impossible. Not only was it not really connected to the electrical source, the trap was triggered (by Detective Matthews). If the trap went off, where's Hoffman's body? See, they better realize Hoffman is the mole by the next picture.

I agree completely. The cops were hot on the trail, so Rigg should've been able to survive. If he didn't, it's stupid. Likewise with the forensics examining the trap. I believe that Hoffman's scene with the tape was before forensics on the trap was completed. If Hoffman isn't outed within the first cop exposition scene, I'd be greatly disappointed.

If she was with Jigsaw, why did she look into the doll like an idiot?

To avoid suspicion. Any cop investigating Jigsaw should KNOW not to go near anything Jigsaw sets up. Her interpretation of the scene of the rapist's trap was far too suspicious.

But that's the thing: it's not intellectual, pseudo-intellectual or anything-intellectual. It thinks it is, but, if it was, it wouldn't have to explain itself by the end.

I think the franchise would have been much better off without the flashy reveal scene. It doesn't even really need it. It assumes it's audience is braindead and needs to be reminded what happens not minutes before. Most movies with a twist do a flashback scene (The Sixth Sense comes to mind) to show the viewer what really happened. The way SAW does it is too flashy and forced.

What I'd really like to see from the franchise is something that breaks from the norm somehow. I'm looking forward to the new director and writer that should come in with V. Hopefully they'll be able to make the concept fresh somehow. And dammit, show what the hell happened to Dr. Lawrence.

[Missy]

- She asked him to come along, so I don't see that as a rift. A rift is her leaving in a huff or without asking.

She didn't just ask. She damn well near begged him to tear himself away from the job, which he refused to do.

Right, which means she really wanted him to come. Hence, no rift.

I thought Zep helped him in some regard.

He helped because that was his test. If he saw it through to the end, Jigsaw would give him the antidote. Which begs the question "Why not go to a hospital." Also, testing one of the only people at the hospital that was nice to you is stupid as well.

Ah. It's been so long, I forgot the full details.

Well, it is a fairly large building. Jeff was locked away in a different area inside the warehouse. Straum and Rigg had the highest chance of running into each other, but Straum likely headed in a different direction when he heard the gunshot from Amanda and Jeff.

I still don't buy it. It would have to be several square miles for those people not to hear one another.

I was referring to the end of SAW II, after Big Scary Black Guy got his throat slashed with the saw. Only Amanda and the son remained. Amanda opened the safe, knowing the combo, and used the syringe on the son. Amanda had the antidote in the first place, since she never looked sick throughout the movie. When Amanda brought the son to Jigsaw's lab to put him in a 'safe place', she wasn't wearing a mask.

Did the boy ever clearly see her or was he groggy? I can't recall.

If she was with Jigsaw, why did she look into the doll like an idiot?

To avoid suspicion. Any cop investigating Jigsaw should KNOW not to go near anything Jigsaw sets up. Her interpretation of the scene of the rapist's trap was far too suspicious.

Allowing your face and neck to be blown to shreds seems a bit, I don't know, extreme.

[chrno_the_sinner]

- She asked him to come along, so I don't see that as a rift. A rift is her leaving in a huff or without asking.

She didn't just ask. She damn well near begged him to tear himself away from the job, which he refused to do.

Right, which means she really wanted him to come. Hence, no rift.

I saw it more as Rigg couldn't tear himself away from his job to focus on his marriage at all. She wanted him to go with her for once rather than focus on work, like he presumably always does.

Well, it is a fairly large building. Jeff was locked away in a different area inside the warehouse. Straum and Rigg had the highest chance of running into each other, but Straum likely headed in a different direction when he heard the gunshot from Amanda and Jeff.

I still don't buy it. It would have to be several square miles for those people not to hear one another.

They did hear each other. Straum heard the gunshots from Jeff, and left in that direction, while Rigg left in another.

I was referring to the end of SAW II, after Big Scary Black Guy got his throat slashed with the saw. Only Amanda and the son remained. Amanda opened the safe, knowing the combo, and used the syringe on the son. Amanda had the antidote in the first place, since she never looked sick throughout the movie. When Amanda brought the son to Jigsaw's lab to put him in a 'safe place', she wasn't wearing a mask.

Did the boy ever clearly see her or was he groggy? I can't recall.

She was the one he was with throughout the movie, and she carried him out. I'm sure he'd remember at least that much before passing out completely. The cops should've been able to add two and two together.

If she was with Jigsaw, why did she look into the doll like an idiot?

To avoid suspicion. Any cop investigating Jigsaw should KNOW not to go near anything Jigsaw sets up. Her interpretation of the scene of the rapist's trap was far too suspicious.

Allowing your face and neck to be blown to shreds seems a bit, I don't know, extreme.

In any case, I'd place money on Perez being an apprentice. It could've been she honestly didn't know about the doll having a bomb in it

[Missy]

I saw it more as Rigg couldn't tear himself away from his job to focus on his marriage at all. She wanted him to go with her for once rather than focus on work, like he presumably always does.

Again, she asked him to come. That's the key point. Had this been a rift she wouldn't have asked him at all.

They did hear each other. Straum heard the gunshots from Jeff, and left in that direction, while Rigg left in another.

And that's why the whole idea is stupid. Why would Jigsaw risk sending cops with loud guns into a building where another "game" is taking place? If one bullet is fired, everything could fall apart.

She was the one he was with throughout the movie, and she carried him out. I'm sure he'd remember at least that much before passing out completely. The cops should've been able to add two and two together.

Though you have a point, it wasn't said. We shouldn't have to make these leaps in logic. I'm not asking for movies to hold our hands, but sometimes films do need to outline how characters know certain bits of information -- especially cops. It would have been very easy to script something like:

Cop 1: "Are we sure Amanda is working with Jigsaw?"

Cop 2: "Yeah. Daniel Matthews said she abducted him."

Bang. Two lines and we know how the cops know Amanda is part of the killings.

In any case, I'd place money on Perez being an apprentice. It could've been she honestly didn't know about the doll having a bomb in it

I still doubt it.

[chrno_the_sinner]

I saw it more as Rigg couldn't tear himself away from his job to focus on his marriage at all. She wanted him to go with her for once rather than focus on work, like he presumably always does.

Again, she asked him to come. That's the key point. Had this been a rift she wouldn't have asked him at all.

To me, it seemed like she was actively trying to save her marriage. She wants to like Rigg, much like you want to like SAW or Countdown.

They did hear each other. Straum heard the gunshots from Jeff, and left in that direction, while Rigg left in another.

And that's why the whole idea is stupid. Why would Jigsaw risk sending cops with loud guns into a building where another "game" is taking place? If one bullet is fired, everything could fall apart.

Could be that Straum wasn't anticipated and Perez got her face blowed off to keep Straum with her, but that's pushing it.

She was the one he was with throughout the movie, and she carried him out. I'm sure he'd remember at least that much before passing out completely. The cops should've been able to add two and two together.

Though you have a point, it wasn't said. We shouldn't have to make these leaps in logic. I'm not asking for movies to hold our hands, but sometimes films do need to outline how characters know certain bits of information -- especially cops. It would have been very easy to script something like:

Cop 1: "Are we sure Amanda is working with Jigsaw?"

Cop 2: "Yeah. Daniel Matthews said she abducted him."

Bang. Two lines and we know how the cops know Amanda is part of the killings.

In any case, I'd place money on Perez being an apprentice. It could've been she honestly didn't know about the doll having a bomb in it

I still doubt it.

Fair enough.

And the hooker propositioning John for sex wasn't the only continuity thing placed in the SAW movies. In III, when Jigsaw gets the flashbacks of his ex-wife during brain surgery, the man from SAW II who helped kidnap everyone and was burned alive is walking in the background.