Titans


tglancy

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Thanks for fucking up the one new DC book I was totally looking forward to, you assholes.

When does this story take place? Could the art be worse? Seriously, when does this take place, because at one point Donna and Kyle are in space, yet another takes place in the Titans East conclusion from Teen Titans. The art is bad, the gaps in writing are laughable, and I am fucking pissed I spent my $3.50 on this.

Assholes.

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I'll give it a shot. I like the characters, the writer and the artist, so hopefully they'll come together to form a good book.

That said, I'm sick of seeing Dick Grayson on a team that isn't the JLA. The character has been around longer than nearly every other character in the DCU, and he has more experience than the Flash, Power Girl, Hal Jordan, Black Canary and Kyle freaking Rayner, yet he's never given the time of day by DC. :grumble:

Sorry, that's been on my chest for a while.

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I'll give it a shot. I like the characters, the writer and the artist, so hopefully they'll come together to form a good book.

That said, I'm sick of seeing Dick Grayson on a team that isn't the JLA. The character has been around longer than nearly every other character in the DCU, and he has more experience than the Flash, Power Girl, Hal Jordan, Black Canary and Kyle freaking Rayner, yet he's never given the time of day by DC. :grumble:

Sorry, that's been on my chest for a while.

I'm going to try to be kind about this.

Nightwing doesn't have any powers. Like, Batmans super smart and a tactical mastermind which is why he gets on the JLA, and Red Arrow shoots lots of useful arrows. Nightwings really good at fighting but theres a lot of bad guys out there who will completly crush him at short range. Arrows are safe, they can be used at range, plus Red Arrow is one of the DC universes top non-meta fighters. Nightwing is like Red Arrow without the arrows.

I'm not saying he couldn't be on the JLA, but he's not going to be the most useful guy against some of thier foes. Its much easier for Kyle Rayner to get in because he has a power ring. Black Canary is a fairly senior member of the team already, she's trained in hand to hand by Shiva herself AND she has a superpower. I get why you think Dick should automatically be on the JLA but a lot of these people have abilities and team-related stature in the DC universe that Nightwing hasn't got because he went straight from the Titans to leading the Outsiders, a team widely regarded in the community as a disaster.

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First, Nightwing is a leader through and through. He can walk into any room, calm the situation down and lead the team to a big victory. He's done it countless times. Not even Batman can do that. Batman's more of an instigator, manipulator and loner. Nightwing is the exact opposite of his father figure, and he's the better man for it.

Furthermore, the fact that he doesn't have powers, in my opinion, makes his victories more important than those of Superman and Green Lantern. They can blast away at their foes, usually from a safe distance. But Nightwing, not only does he have to think about how to beat his foes at close range, but also how to do it without the assistance of rings and eye beams. That's not meant to diminish those characters with powers, nor am I claiming they act without thinking; I'm simply stating that I think Nightwing has to have a better tactical mind because he can't punch something into space or obliterate it with a deadly stare.

Are you sure you're not confusing Red Arrow with Connor Hawke? Connor is a top fighter, that's for sure, but I don't recall Roy being in the upper echelon. And even if he is, Dick was trained by Batman, who we all know is a world-class fighter. Nightwing is in no way a slouch when it comes to combat.

Ring or not, Kyle joined the League with next to zero experience. (You all know my love for Kyle, but I call foul that he made the cut yet Dick is still on the sidelines.)

Black Canary hasn't always had her powers. I can't recall if she was on the JLA without them, but if she has been, that validates my point that a non-powered fighter can make the team. (Batman's proof of that.) Plus, Canary only recently trained with Lady Shiva. In fact, did Shiva train Canary? I thought they switched places during the missing "One Year Later" year. I'm foggy on that time, so someone fill me in. Either way, Dick trained with Bruce for years, which goes back to my point that he's an excellent fighter.

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I'm not saying Nightwing shouldn't be in the League, just that he's not the first choice guy for a lot of creative teams.

Shiva trained Black Canary by mail and then Canary went to learn from the same people as Shiva did, and in doing so became the new Shiva in thier eyes. She's one of the most capable hand to hand fighters in the world. Back in the day her inclusion might have been token but right now she's a significant member in her own right.

Kyle being put on the team I put down to the League wanting to keep tabs on a new hero with an incredibly powerful weapon. Its the same reason Batman gave for bringing in the new Firestorm recently, he needs guidance and experiance working with the best, and he's too dangerous for them to allow to develop on his own. Its not always about making the cut, but about making a team. I don't think that Nightwing will ever be a part of a Justice League that Batman is also on, they just clash so easily when it comes down to operational methods in crunch situations.

I was certain that Roy was highly regarded in hand to hand but I'm unable to find any evidence for that, so I'll concede that point.

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Sorry, but I just don't get the "they have powers, so they're more deserving" argument. If that's the case, what do you make of Batman, Blue Beetle, Green and Red Arrow, Steel and Huntress?

I know you've already gone over Red Arrow, but how is a suit of armor, gadgets or a few trick arrows going to protect you from Sinestro or Darkseid? They're not. It's all about using the land, your skills and resources wisely. If Huntress can make the team, there's absolutely no reason Nightwing can't.

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Sorry, but I just don't get the "they have powers, so they're more deserving" argument. If that's the case, what do you make of Batman, Blue Beetle, Green and Red Arrow, Steel and Huntress?

I know you've already gone over Red Arrow, but how is a suit of armor, gadgets or a few trick arrows going to protect you from Sinestro or Darkseid? They're not. It's all about using the land, your skills and resources wisely. If Huntress can make the team, there's absolutely no reason Nightwing can't.

I didn't pick Huntress. I didn't even know she was on the team. However looking at her bio it becomes clear that this was Batman's way of trying to have a positive influence on her just like with Firestorm. You seem to believe that a position on the League is earnt when clearly its circumstance that resulting in almost all new members. The opening arc for the current team is all about how they were forced to throw out all thier original selections in favor of the team that fate threw together.

As for your whole arguement against special equipment being of much benefit to the unpowered, I ask you to watch the first episode of JLU where Green Arrow stops a giant radioactive chinese robot that even Supergirl couldn't dent. I think the bow has proven its worth.

Blue Beetle was hired during the comedy era to basically fulfill the role of Justice League pilot, ferrying the rest of them around. Green Arrow was a classic League member going back to the days when Dick still wore trunks, he's got tenure. As for your point about Steel? Thats like saying that Green Lantern doesn't have any special powers. Hal Jordan is just a man when he's not wearing the ring. It doesn't mean he's not a powered hero 99% of the time.

Look, I get that Nightwing is a great fighter and a gymnast on almost a Meta level but the problem is that the Justice League has already fulfilled is quotient of unpowered humans and quite frankly Batman by himself is almost enough. What does Nightwing bring to the table right now that Batman doesn't? Or Roy? Or Green Arrow? I agree that at some point Nightwing should join the league and become thier leader or at least a senior member but its just not going to happen until Bats is gone, possibly even the entire trinity. They are slowly including more of the second generation with Flash and Red Arrow, I think that Nightwing will join during a crunch situation in a big event thats put Batman out of the picture, which is how it ought to be. He shouldn't just be selected, he should be the right man at the right time so the story they are telling gets a shining moment.

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Nightwing's a leader on any team that's not the JL. When on the JL he'd become just another kid.

I'm bored by the idea of Nightwing on the JL. He brings nothing new to the table. Especially with Roy there. He's entirely redundant with Batman there. It's not the right fit. If he is to be on any other non-Titans team then it should be the Justice Society. At least there he'd be under the tutelage of a different set of role models, ones that won't look at him like he's Robin.

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Sorry about the delayed response. Work initially distracted me from coming back to the thread.

I didn't pick Huntress. I didn't even know she was on the team. However looking at her bio it becomes clear that this was Batman's way of trying to have a positive influence on her just like with Firestorm. You seem to believe that a position on the League is earnt when clearly its circumstance that resulting in almost all new members. The opening arc for the current team is all about how they were forced to throw out all thier original selections in favor of the team that fate threw together.

I disagree. Though I see no problem with the team first coming together thanks to special circumstances, membership beyond that point should be an honor earned through years of successful service as a superhero. Placing new heroes on the biggest superhero team doesn't make sense, not when there are other organizations such as the Teen Titans, Outsiders and Birds of Prey.

Though I get the idea that seasoned heroes would take an interest in new heroes, never should it be, "Hey, I was just exposed to toxic fumes, and now I fart a deadly black gas. Can I join your club of highly trained supertypes?" With all of the vets responding in unison, "Sure thing, chum!" Other teams, sure. The League? No.

As for your whole arguement against special equipment being of much benefit to the unpowered, I ask you to watch the first episode of JLU where Green Arrow stops a giant radioactive chinese robot that even Supergirl couldn't dent. I think the bow has proven its worth.

I never said GA's bow hadn't "proven its worth," nor did I mean to imply that. My point was that all some of these people have are their gadgets and hand-to-hand skills. And if you're going to push Nightwing away from the team due to that, there are others who also shouldn't be there.

Blue Beetle was hired during the comedy era to basically fulfill the role of Justice League pilot, ferrying the rest of them around. Green Arrow was a classic League member going back to the days when Dick still wore trunks, he's got tenure.

But the fact remains that Beetle, both Arrows, Steel and several other non-metahumans have been members. And with maybe the exception of GA, all of them had less experience than Dick Grayson.

As for your point about Steel? Thats like saying that Green Lantern doesn't have any special powers. Hal Jordan is just a man when he's not wearing the ring. It doesn't mean he's not a powered hero 99% of the time.

Hal's been using his ring for decades now. He's a force to be recognized throughout the galaxy. Steel, he might have a tough suit of armor and a big brain, but the fact remains that he had only debuted as a character four before joining the JLA. In comic book time that's a few months, maybe a year. Meaning, he was still a rookie.

Look, I get that Nightwing is a great fighter and a gymnast on almost a Meta level but the problem is that the Justice League has already fulfilled is quotient of unpowered humans and quite frankly Batman by himself is almost enough.

I didn't realize there was a quota. Is that like superhero affirmative action? :P

Allow me to humbly present this short scene:

JUSTICE LEAGUE: EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER

Superman, proudly standing at the head of the JLA conference table, says, "Looking around this room I see a great number of superheroes with a wide array of powers. Strength. Speed. Sonics. Toxic flatulence. But what we don't have, and I'm ashamed to admit this oversight, is a normal human." Everyone in the room groans, loudly. Superman raises his palms, attempting to calm him friends. "I realize they're not the most desirable teammates..."

Batman silently steps from the shadows, scowling.

Taking notice of the dark figure, Superman nervously continues, "Ah, yes, well, Batman. I didn't mean you. You — you're not like the rest of them... ah... I mean, you're Batman."

Unmoved, unspeaking, Batman continues to glare.

"Y-you're," Superman stammers, "well — HA! — I hardly consider you normal."

For an uncomfortable eternity, the blank white eyes of Batman's mask lock on Superman. No one in the room dares to shift or even breathe. Superman attempts a smile, but the gesture is forced.

Then, without warning, Batman disappears back into the shadows, leaving the room cold and dead. As everyone exhales, they're left to wonder if the Dark Knight had really been there, or if, maybe, their meta-guilt manifested the vision.

THE END

What does Nightwing bring to the table right now that Batman doesn't?

Positive leadership, trust and respect. Batman brings fear.

Frankly, I'd rather see Red Arrow and Nightwing on the League over Green Arrow and Batman. Same basic skills, but fresh blood. Plus it would serve as a passing of the torch; while the League vets move on, the former Teen Titans take control. Add Wally and Donna in there, alongside Green Lantern, Black Canary, Hawkgirl and Black Lightning (and maybe Superman), and that's a team I'd pay to read every month.

I'm bored by the idea of Nightwing on the JL. He brings nothing new to the table. Especially with Roy there. He's entirely redundant with Batman there. It's not the right fit. If he is to be on any other non-Titans team then it should be the Justice Society. At least there he'd be under the tutelage of a different set of role models, ones that won't look at him like he's Robin.

Though I could see Nightwing on the JSA, currently Red Robin is a better fit. (Granted, I'd much rather see Jason Todd as Red Hood in his own comic, but if DC is insistent on making him part of the superhero community, the JSA is where he needs to be.) Dick isn't truly a legacy character. Unlike other characters who were brought in much later (e.g. Wally, Bart, Hal, Guy, Donna, etc.), Grayson has been at Batman's side virtually from the start. Jason, however, is the continuation of Dick's legacy as Robin.

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tglancy, you seem suprised that this was bad ?

I had hopes. I love all of these characters, even Beast Boy, and wanted the book to be good. I guess it just proves that willing something to happen doesn't always mean it will.

Don't get me wrong because I love the Wolfman/Perez era Titans but once i saw the creative team on this book, i knew it would be shit.

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