Talia vs. Selina

[Mistah J]

I am a fan of WFP (obviously) and I am disturbed by the fact that one of you call Talia Al'gul the "bitch" Al'gul. Granted we are all entitled to our opinions, case in point the back and forth our own dynamic duo of Mike and James. Anyway, while Selina can match Bats in fighting and the cat & mouse sexual attraction, I feel that in the long run Talia would be better for Bruce. Let's mix Marvel and DC for a minute...Selina is like Felicia Hardy in Spider-man. She loves Spider-man, but not the Peter Parker persona. That's the feeling I get with Selina and Bruce. She loves his dark alter-ego, but only tolerates the Bruce Wayne persona. Talia is like Mary Jane in Spider-man. While she knows Peter is Spider-man, she loves both and supports him. While I don't see Talia as being the type to sit home and bake cokkies when her man is fighting the good fight, she would help and support him in any way she can. There is also the fact that if you have Talia as your wife, you have the entire Leauge of Shadows at your command. Batman, Robin and Batgirl wouldn't have to do it all alone. That's why in "Demon's Quest" I wanted to take Batman aside and talk some sense into him..."YOU'RE TURNING DOWN ONE OF THE SEXIEST WOMEN ON THE PLANET WHO LOVES YOU IN ALL YOUR FORMS, GIVE ME A (enter colorful explative here)BREAK." Any thoughts, for, against, tell me to shut up etc...?

[Guest]

Yup, Talia all the way.

I've always hated Catwoman in her various forms.

[Missy]

Paging Skyle. Paging Skyle.

[James D.]

Don't look at me. There isn't a Catwoman episode I can't find some way to lambast. :angel:

And welcome to the forums, Mistah J. :smile:

[Skyle]

Oh. My. God.

I have to get back to this later. I have some claw-sharpening to do.

[Missy]

Fight! Fight! Fight! :devil:

[Dan]

Fight! Fight! Fight! :devil:

Your forum administrator, ladies and gentlemen.

[James D.]

Fight! Fight! Fight! :devil:

Your forum administrator, ladies and gentlemen.

Don't you mean, "yah fahrum administratah, ladies and gentlemen"?

[Skyle]

That's the feeling I get with Selina and Bruce. She loves his dark alter-ego, but only tolerates the Bruce Wayne persona.

I emailed J & M about this in Episode 35. Give it a listen if you haven't already.

Talia is like Mary Jane in Spider-man.

With the a 1000 yr old Demon as her father who's tried repeatedly to kill Batman. Just like Mary-Jane.

While she knows Peter is Spider-man, she loves both and supports him.

I know you don't mean unconditionally.

While I don't see Talia as being the type to sit home and bake cokkies

She probably can't because she doesn't know how.

..."YOU'RE TURNING DOWN ONE OF THE SEXIEST WOMEN ON THE PLANET

And Selina is...a bologna sandwich?

There is also the fact that if you have Talia as your wife, you have the entire Leauge of Shadows at your command.

Batman doesn't want to be part of the League of Shadows. He's Batman. He knows Ras wants him to be his pawn, and Batman wouldn't be anybody's pawn. The leader of the League of Shadows is crazy. They've been touched by the crazy, and influenced by the crazy. Bruce, though sometimes bat-sh*t crazy, is not that kind of crazy. The League of Shadows has, no doubt, broken the law before. Batman IS the law. The League of Shadows will go to any end to achieve the means. Batman, despite everything, will not.

Bruce doesn't need the League when Nightwing, Robin, Oracle, Huntress, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, J'onn, and the rest of the entire Justice League, people who he knows and trusts, have his back. Besides, Ras will never die. Even in S:TAS, he still wants to live forever. How will Batman know he will be given "The Mantle," if Ras refuses to die? He doesn't. Ras is not to be trusted. Batman out.

“Damnit Quinn,” Catwoman broke in, “you used to be a psychiatrist. You ever hear the AA definition of insanity: It’s doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. How many times are you going to go back ‘cause that psychotic loon says he loves you, only to have him try and kill you all over again.”

The subtext was inescapable.

But Batman had no time to ponder the ironies of Selina speaking these words while he had Talia blowing on his neck talking about her need for his protection from her father… Just how many times had Talia betrayed him while all the while proclaiming her love? For that matter, how many times had Catwoman fought along side him – rescued him even – while they were ostensibly still enemies? When the chips were down, the one woman could be counted on to stand by him as surely as the other would betray him.

***

“Talia is Lucy,” he explained. “Bruce is Charlie Brown. Every time she comes around she swears she’ll hold that football in place, and every time he falls for it and believes she’d left Ra’s and is ready to start a new life …WHOOSH…Oh Good Grief!”

Selina looked at him like a kitten that’d been stuck on a fire escape in the rain until four in the morning. She did not see the funny.

Okay, so much for lightening the mood, Dick thought.

“You have any pet analogies about me, kiddo?” she asked softly. -- Chris Dee

That just about sums up what I think of Bruce & Talia.

James, you really are the face of sarcasm.

[Guest]

Your argument is valid, well thought out, and informative.

I present my rebuttal..

[Skyle]

DW, you are darling.

But I do prefer purple leather, myself:

[Guest DCAUFan1051]

I just had to reply to this topic. It made me laugh so hard I nearly fell out of my chair!!

However I have a point to bring up:

After we see Ra's and Talia fall off the cliff into the river in S:TAS Demon Reborn I truly believe Talia died and Ra's survived. I may be wrong but I believe the next time we see the 2 charcters is in Batman Beyond in the episode Out of the Past. When Talia seemingly reappears but it turns out Ra's had taken over her body or something to that affect. Bruce/Batman is disgusted by this. So therefore my opinion is that Selina/Catwoman would be the better love interest then some wack job who taunts and torments "Old Bruce" just so Ra's can have a worthy young opponent other then Terry. I know I shouldn't be bringing this up seeing as Mike & James haven't gotten to BB yet but they will it's still a part of the Bruce/Selina/Talia triangle.

[Guest DCAUFan1051]

Fight! Fight! Fight! :devil:

Your forum administrator, ladies and gentlemen.

yeah but aint it cool Dan? tooo funny it's like going to a comedy act reading some of mike's posts

[Mistah J]

Thanks for all the posts and I do agree that Selina is more accessable, but you also got to think that Selina is an unrepentant criminal while Talia is capable of turning on her father for the man she loves. How many times have we seen Selina actually repent and go straight? I mean yes they were engaged in "Perchance to Dream", but in the long run it would never work. Batman and Catwoman are too much alike and on other sides of the coin.

[Guest DCAUFan1051]

:devil:

Thanks for all the posts and I do agree that Selina is more accessable, but you also got to think that Selina is an unrepentant criminal while Talia is capable of turning on her father for the man she loves. How many times have we seen Selina actually repent and go straight? I mean yes they were engaged in "Perchance to Dream", but in the long run it would never work. Batman and Catwoman are too much alike and on other sides of the coin.

OK it's not even 9AM here yet so I'm not gonna argue I'm barely awake if you look at the Bat/Cat overall mythos thru everything not just the DCAU she's more suitable then Talia. My best example would be the very short lived Birds Of Prey Series where Alfred says Batman's one true love Catwoman and they had a Daughter Huntress in that series huntress even says she never knew her mother's criminal side because once Selina Kyle had a child she stopped being a criminal. You want a good "REAL LIFE" Harley watch that series Mia Sara was very convincing as Harley Quinn (although there was no clown outfit) :devil:

[Skyle]

Thanks for all the posts and I do agree that Selina is more accessable

She's not more accessible, but she is more loyal. And considering that cats can't be trained to be loyal, that says a lot.

That said, I really dislike how Selina is portrayed as a cold-hearted b*tch in BTNAS. The Catwoman from the DC comic teases Batman, but would never seduce Nightwing and try to screw up their relationship. That is beneath her.

I'll give Talia credit for helping Selina out in Hush. However, she did this for two reasons -- One: if Talia left Selina for dead at the hands of an SUPER ASSASSIN sent by her FATHER, there would be an ANGRY Bat. And she wouldn't want to make Batman angry. Two: leaving Selina for dead would make Talia look like a "lesser" woman. Being her father's daughter, and inheriting his hubris, she would never let her "Beloved" think less of her forever.

you also got to think that Selina is an unrepentant criminal while Talia is capable of turning on her father for the man she loves.

Selina's not stealing anymore. She's working hand in hand with Batman. (Detective Comics #845)

How many times have we seen Selina actually repent and go straight?

I don't know Selina's religious stance, but I think the cessation of her stealing is good enough.

I mean yes they were engaged in "Perchance to Dream", but in the long run it would never work. Batman and Catwoman are too much alike and on other sides of the coin.

"Selina and Bruce are connected on some fundamental level. She is the yang to his yin, the light to his darkness. She is the thing that will keep Bruce human and the Batman a thing of good, because well, he can be a tight-ass. He is the rock and moral certainty to her confusion and internal conflict, the intellect and stoic to her emotions and sensuality. It isn't that the two of them are dependent on the other, it is just that, these two pieces fit together perfectly. They could (and do) have a life without the other, but they would never really be happy." -- Ben Russell-Gough

On a side note, Helena Wayne is back. JSoA Annual #1. Damien better watch his back.

[annericelover]

Well I guess I will put my two cents. I am still new to the comic book world of these characters, but I do know that Selena Kyle has stopped stealing, but in terms of what I have seen in the different incarnations of these characters through film and TV(mostly DCAU)this is how I see it.

Selena Kyle has a great attraction for Batman, but does seem to just tolerate Bruce Wayne. At the same time, Selena only is attracted to Batman because of Batman's reluctance to take it any further. If Batman were to give in, she'd most likely grow tired of him quick, she's in it for the chase.

Talia on the other hand has an attraction for Bruce and Batman equally, finding Bruce to be strong and gallant, not to mention rich. Batman she finds to be strong, mysterious and adventurous. Unlike Selena Kyle she wouldn't run off if Bruce decided to give in to his desires. However, Talia is very untrustworthy, caring for Bruce wouldn't be enough and Bruce would always be wary about whether or not she decides to continues her criminal ways, remember the only other man who can in a sense control Talia is her father Ra's Al Ghoul.

In the end though, neither one of them would be a match with Bruce or Batman, due to Bruce's own problem of allowing himself to live a normal life. He only has one love who he'd give up the cape and cowl for and he lost her years earlier, Andrea Beaumont. If you want to know who'd be the real love of Bruce's life Andrea Beaumont wins over all the sexual and emotional attraction, both Selena and Talia share.

[James D.]

Bruce/Batman should just have a three-way with both of them and leave it at that.

[Guest DCAUFan1051]

Bruce/Batman should just have a three-way with both of them and leave it at that.

hahahahahahahahahaha! I was waiting for Mike to post that! good call though :devil:

[Skyle]

Selena Kyle has a great attraction for Batman, but does seem to just tolerate Bruce Wayne.

I sent an email about this to J&M in Ep 35.

At the same time, Selena only is attracted to Batman because of Batman's reluctance to take it any further. If Batman were to give in, she'd most likely grow tired of him quick, she's in it for the chase.

I think that's left up to interpretation, but if you read Hush, she doesn't recoil when she finds out that Batman is Bruce Wayne.

Talia on the other hand has an attraction for Bruce and Batman equally, finding Bruce to be strong and gallant, not to mention rich.

In BTAS, Talia meets Batman and immediately unmasks him to find out that he is Bruce Wayne. Selina never got that chance. I don't know if Talia would care if Bruce is rich, but in BTAS, Selina was definitely not attracted to his money.

Unlike Selena Kyle she wouldn't run off if Bruce decided to give in to his desires.

There is no proof of this. Selina has never run off after Batman gave into his desires (Can you explain more what you mean by "giving into his desires?") Anyhow, she definitely didn't run away when he finally takes off his mask.

remember the only other man who can in a sense control Talia is her father Ra's Al Ghoul.

The only real man in Talia's life is Ras. He is her beginning and her end, literally and figuratively. She will never betray her father, but she will betray Bruce.

Selina's only loyalty is to herself, but though she puts on a tough extierior, she's actually with a thief with a heart of gold. She would never betray Bruce and hurt him the way Talia has.

In the end though, neither one of them would be a match with Bruce or Batman, due to Bruce's own problem of allowing himself to live a normal life.

I think he's capable of a life as normal as he can get if he were Bat-Bruce all the time with Selina. A move into Wayne manor wouldn't hurt. Even Alfred is quite fond of her

He only has one love who he'd give up the cape and cowl for and he lost her years earlier, Andrea Beaumont.

I like Andrea Beaumont (personality, smarts, class). However, she came into the picture pre-Batman and rescued him early on. His choice in women changed after Andrea. He's no longer hopeful or innocent; he worked for a cause and that was his life. Selina was the only woman to whom Bruce admitted he might have felt as strongly towards as he did Andrea: "I haven't felt this way about someone in a long...long time."(Cat & Claw, BTAS)

In my opinion, Batman secretly likes the dark side that she brings out in him. He gets playful, witty, and a bit confused and lenient (BTAS and comics). He is always the straight man with Talia, and that could get quite boring, even for Batman. Cat/bat banter, on the other hand: meow.

Bruce/Batman should just have a three-way with both of them and leave it at that.

Don't put any ideas in Frank Miller's head!

[Mistah J]

Um, I think Talia has betrayed her father, hell even changed her name. I think in the graphic novel "President Luthor" Talia has changed her last name to Head and is trying to stay ahead of her father. I hope I'm right in the fact she betrayed her father for a good reason, like as a good faith thing for Bruce.

[Skyle]

Um, I think Talia has betrayed her father, hell even changed her name.

Yes, to Talia Head. "R'as" = Head. Hm, big change.

I think in the graphic novel "President Luthor" Talia has changed her last name to Head and is trying to stay ahead of her father. I hope I'm right in the fact she betrayed her father for a good reason, like as a good faith thing for Bruce.

Right, except afterwards, in "Death and the Maidens," Talia accepts her role as Demon Spawn and disavows her love for Bruce Wayne AGAIN.

[Sn4tcH]

Exactly, though to be fair, Talia had just been killed and thrown into a Laz pit about a dozen times. Needless to say, her state of mind is... off.

I haven't read any of Morrisons run on Batman yet, but I have read a lot of Batman. And undeniably Catwoman is the girl for Batman. If any story proves this it has to be Hush, Batman unmasks himself for her, giving her his full trust. Talia had the luxury of always knowing thanks to her father. I don't think Batman ever would have told Talia his identity if she didn't know it before hand anyways.

Look at the facts, Talia has slipped farther and farther away from Batman, while Catwoman now works on his side.

[GoFlash]

Since it's coming up in only about 6 weeks, I thought I'd point out that there's another option. Bruce never really opens up to anyone because a) he's too obsessed with the mission b) it's hard to reconcile being self controlled and being head over heels with anyone and c) after his parents died, he's probably afraid to show love for anyone, because he's sure that something bad will happen. Look at his experiences in the DCAU, and you can see where that might get reinforced.

The future life that they showed in "Batman Beyond" was depressing and anti-climactic. We always want a happy ending - Clark ends up with Lois, Barry with Iris, Wally with Linda, Peter with M.J. (oops, go back, do over). When "Rebirth" first aired (not, at that time, having seen a lot of BTAS or Gotham Knights) I couldn't believe that they painted such a bleak picture of Batman's later years...but you have to admit, it certainly rings true. Forget for a moment who would be a good match for him - do you really think he'd be a good match for anyone else? Not to be too maudlin and fatalistic, but I really think that his last chance to pull out of the obsessive track he ends up on was with Andrea Beaumont - when events happened as they did, I think that not only ended his relationship, but may have been his last chance to have formed a real relationship with anyone. He may try, he may want a relationship, but I really think they showed it the only way it could happen in "Batman Beyond". Granted, my bias is usually to try and explain why what was on-screen is right (and the ungrateful producers don't even send out No-Prizes. Oy.), but I just can't see a post-Phantasm Batman being able to form a real relationship with anyone. If Phantasm took place 10 years before BTAS, the Flying Grayson's must have been killed not long afterwards, so Dick Grayson was there probably within a year of Andrea, and even they had lots of trouble building a lasting father-son relationship. I think that Selina would be a much better match than Talia, since Talia...shall we say, doesn't wash her hands (because she's EVIL!), but it's a moot point. Batman wouldn't be a good match for anyone.

[Guest DCAUFan1051]

Since it's coming up in only about 6 weeks, I thought I'd point out that there's another option. Bruce never really opens up to anyone because a) he's too obsessed with the mission b) it's hard to reconcile being self controlled and being head over heels with anyone and c) after his parents died, he's probably afraid to show love for anyone, because he's sure that something bad will happen. Look at his experiences in the DCAU, and you can see where that might get reinforced.

The future life that they showed in "Batman Beyond" was depressing and anti-climactic. We always want a happy ending - Clark ends up with Lois, Barry with Iris, Wally with Linda, Peter with M.J. (oops, go back, do over). When "Rebirth" first aired (not, at that time, having seen a lot of BTAS or Gotham Knights) I couldn't believe that they painted such a bleak picture of Batman's later years...but you have to admit, it certainly rings true. Forget for a moment who would be a good match for him - do you really think he'd be a good match for anyone else? Not to be too maudlin and fatalistic, but I really think that his last chance to pull out of the obsessive track he ends up on was with Andrea Beaumont - when events happened as they did, I think that not only ended his relationship, but may have been his last chance to have formed a real relationship with anyone. He may try, he may want a relationship, but I really think they showed it the only way it could happen in "Batman Beyond". Granted, my bias is usually to try and explain why what was on-screen is right (and the ungrateful producers don't even send out No-Prizes. Oy.), but I just can't see a post-Phantasm Batman being able to form a real relationship with anyone. If Phantasm took place 10 years before BTAS, the Flying Grayson's must have been killed not long afterwards, so Dick Grayson was there probably within a year of Andrea, and even they had lots of trouble building a lasting father-son relationship. I think that Selina would be a much better match than Talia, since Talia...shall we say, doesn't wash her hands (because she's EVIL!), but it's a moot point. Batman wouldn't be a good match for anyone.

I love the hints in JL and JLU of a Batman/Wonder Woman dynamic woohoo can u imagine what their kids would be like lmao