Episode 15


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In "Sideshow" Killer Croc makes some friends, while someone attempts to murder Detective Harvey Bullock in "A Bullet for Bullock." Next Batman and the new District Attorney go on trial in the aptly named "Trial," and "Avatar" sees the return of Ra's al Ghul. Lastly, Poison Ivy supposedly gives up her life of crime in "House and Garden." [ 2:25:56 || 66.8 MB ]

The above is from: http://www.worldsfinestpodcast.com/episodes/wfp_015.mp3

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Pre-Episode Banter

C'mon James, you HAVE to see 'The Great Brain Robbery'. Just get the DVD.

E-Mails

The problem I have with y'all doing Static Shock is that the only reason it's part of the universe is because of some cheap crossovers instigated by the WB, which is sort of exactly what happened between all of the Marvel shows.

That massive Spider-Man cartoon with all of the heroes that Beyonder set up was awesome.

I like Stavros's point of the problem with Joker being a hitman. Really good stuff. It doesn't bother me, but it's definitely a great look at it all.

'Long Halloween' would be awesome if it was transferred to animation. As long as they emulate Tim Sale's style then I'd be perfectly satisfied.

I envy Thomas.

Nah, it's not the 'Citizen Kane' of cartoon movies. I don't think it's quite that good.

Episodes

Sideshow- Meh episode. Some great backgrounds and awesome animation at the climax, but the attempt at humanizing Croc was terrible. Trying to strike sympathy with 'I was just being myself' is utterly stupid, because if being yourself refers to being an ass and stealing from people who took you in, there's no way that either evokes sympathy or humanizes the character. It just makes him more deplorable than he ever was. I did sort of like the sideshows though

Mike, I enjoy your Croc voice.

Yeah, that was pretty Clark Kent-ish now that you mention it. Never thought about it.

Didn't notice the Levitz reference. No, I highly doubt he was the president at this time. I just happened to have a DC book published in 1995, and it says the president was Jenette Kahn, so no, he came later.

Yeah, Croc is far from insane. It's stupid that he's in Arkham in 'Trial'.

Yeah, I do love the forest sounds, especially when coupled with the artwork.

I didn't know that was Brad Garrett. He's done a lot more for the DCAU, including Lobo and Bibbo.

A Bullet for Bullock- One of my ALL-TIME FAVORITES. Best music in the series, most well-established noir atmosphere, and awesome animation. I love it to death.

Yes! You guys agree with me absolutely!

It's EASILY my favorite score.

The Batman theme done jazz is probably the second greatest musical moment behind the piano solo at Dan Turpin's funeral in 'S:TAS'.

I'm hoping that this is going to be a perfect ten.

Trial- Don't like it. It's hilarious at points and the animation is good, but the story is very weak. I wrote a review at another site that I'll go ahead and post:

"Just watched it on DVD, and I must say, it's grown worse the more I watch it. Janet Van Dorne is an embarrassment of a character. What I think of as her comic-book counterpart, the anti-Batman Commissioner Ellen Yindel from 'The Dark Knight Returns' has far more valid and reasonable criticisms against the Dark Knight. Janet Van Dorne has nothing more than her own personal claims, which were embarrassing to listen to. As soon as she listed Two-Face among those Batman created, I wondered if Dini was keeping in mind the origin of the character, that it was Rupert Thorne who caused everything, and if there was a lack of evidence in the first place, it's still documented that the Two-Face personality lived in Harvey for his entire life. Even if the episode wasn't big on continuity, Janet is still portrayed very ignorant for my taste. The scene in Arkham in which she has a change of heart is cringe-worthy. If you recall, she realizes the criminals changed themselves as soon as she, apparently, starts to remember the facts of what happened. It's almost as if she says, "Wait a minute. Let me just remember that Mad Hatter kidnapped an innocent girl, Harley fell under Joker's manipulation, Poison Ivy was an insane activist, etc. etc. all before Batman. Even though all this information has always been in my brain and the inmates here said nothing to convince me, I still for some reason used my non-factual theories to justify a disdain for Batman. Silly me. Now that I bother to rack my brain for the facts, I guess Batman's off the hook." It makes her earlier position on Batman seem incompetent and embarrassing. So after that rant on why Janet Van Dorne is a wasted character, here's my grade of 2 and 1/2 stars, simply because there were some saving graces (Joker for instance)."

Isn't the Penguin in Stonegate ('Second Chance')?

Jimmy Levitz? I can't believe I didn't notice that!

The Punisher? Seriously??? That's awesome.

Didn't notice that issue with Scarface.

Mike's Joker/Harley rant is awesome.

Yeah, I agree that Batman is an optimist. A pessimistic Batman would be way too depressing.

Avatar- Awesome episode. It may be over-the-top, but its so clearly an homage to old adventure serials that I can't take it seriously. It's so much fun, but at the same time there are some surprisingly serious moments. I actually have to say that I enjoy it better than 'The Demon's Quest'.

I disagree with you. Even if it's silly and over-the-top, I think that Ras has lost none of his edge and despite the plot, he remains characteristically intact (though I suppose you have a point with the scroll scene; I don't remember it being that terrible though). I mean, Batman himself calls attention to how absurd it all is, "You sound like a bad afternoon serial, Ras". It's such an homage and it's totally not meant as being serious and realistic that I can justify all the craziness. I love it.

Other positives, the ending with Ubu, Batman's completely black without blue color-scheme is awesome, the animation is pretty stellar, and the dialogue is pretty awesome.

And you can't deny that the Ras/Talia relationship is progressed a bit. His quickness to reject her sort of sets a precedent for his basically killing her in 'Out of the Past' from 'Batman Beyond'.

And the storyboards for this one are awesome (they're included in the book 'Batman Animated').

House and Garden- Awesome awesome awesome. Best, and perhaps the only remotely good, Poison Ivy episode ever. It humanizes her and delves into her psychology. Simple as that.

But this one freaked me out SO MUCH when I was a kid. The little plant baby saying 'Mommy' in the dark and creepily orchestrated underground chemical lab? I was scared out of my mind.

And the ending is eerily touching.

Your summary is so hilarious.

You hated the episode?!?!?!?!?!? It's awesome. The monsters were awesome; if they creeped me out as a kid then they did their job. And Jim Cummings did the voice! It doesn't get better!

But this is a great episode!!! What's the problem?????

Jason Hillhouse? I think he's good friends with Paul Dini. I don't get why he came back in later DVD extras though.

Well I know James has it right with his description of part 2, but then he's dead wrong when he says he doesn't like it because it's such an awesome episode.

I mean, in all objectivity and stopping the joking, there's a massive psychological undertone to the episode. The whole point is that it's showing how Poison Ivy, in trying to pursue something other than crime, a usual human desire for a family, she ends up still twisting it to her own psychologically screwed up standards. It's just such deep insight into her character that her idea of happiness is making screwed up plant babies by keeping a guy captive. No other episode comes this close to giving her an interesting characterization.

And the title card is creepy as well.

I don't see the problem with Robin's weeds whacked line. Hasn't he always made lame puns, even in the best of episodes?

But this is still hilarious. "Show me Dick!"

And yeah, I do agree with most of your nitpicks.

Scores

Sideshow: You- 7 and 9 / Me- 5

A Bullet for Bullock: You- 10 / Me- 10

Trial: You- 8 and 5 / Me- 4

Avatar: You- 2.5 and 3 / Me- 9

House and Garden: You- 3.5 and 3 (such lowness?!?!?!?) / Me- 9.5

So many disagreements...except 'A Bullet for Bullock' of course.

I swear, you're getting an e-mail from me on 'House and Garden'.

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And you can't deny that the Ras/Talia relationship is progressed a bit. His quickness to reject her sort of sets a precedent for his basically killing her in 'Out of the Past' from 'Batman Beyond'.

See, the problem with that is that Ra's completely contradicts himself in "Showdown" when he basically says he couldn't abandon his own son.

As for "Trial", I have a feeling I'll be downgrading my grade when we do our BTAS recap episode. The more I think about it, the more I can't believe I graded it so high. That doesn't mean I don't still like the episode, though.

Thanks again for your feedback, Mxy. We eagerly await that e-mail. :devil:

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The problem I have with y'all doing Static Shock is that the only reason it's part of the universe is because of some cheap crossovers instigated by the WB, which is sort of exactly what happened between all of the Marvel shows.

But Static eventually popped up in the Justice League cartoons, so what might have started out as cheap crossovers wound up playing a big part in JLU.

Sideshow- Meh episode. Some great backgrounds and awesome animation at the climax, but the attempt at humanizing Croc was terrible. Trying to strike sympathy with 'I was just being myself' is utterly stupid, because if being yourself refers to being an ass and stealing from people who took you in, there's no way that either evokes sympathy or humanizes the character. It just makes him more deplorable than he ever was. I did sort of like the sideshows though

I don't feel the "I was being myself" line was meant to make us sympathetic for him. That's simply the cold truth. Putting the box of money back (hi, James!) was the moment where we're supposed to think he's changed.

Mike, I enjoy your Croc voice.

:D

The scene in Arkham in which she has a change of heart is cringe-worthy. If you recall, she realizes the criminals changed themselves as soon as she, apparently, starts to remember the facts of what happened. It's almost as if she says, "Wait a minute. Let me just remember that Mad Hatter kidnapped an innocent girl, Harley fell under Joker's manipulation, Poison Ivy was an insane activist, etc. etc. all before Batman. Even though all this information has always been in my brain and the inmates here said nothing to convince me, I still for some reason used my non-factual theories to justify a disdain for Batman. Silly me. Now that I bother to rack my brain for the facts, I guess Batman's off the hook."

THANK YOU! (Remember, the score I gave it was simply for the Punisher cameo.)

Avatar- Awesome episode.

No, not really. :P

Batman himself calls attention to how absurd it all is, "You sound like a bad afternoon serial, Ras". It's such an homage and it's totally not meant as being serious and realistic that I can justify all the craziness. I love it.

Calling attention to the crappiness doesn't make it less crappy, though.

Ra's is so out of character. He's stupid and lovestruck. He lacks the cunning he's previously displayed. And, basically, there's no depth to him. Why did he want the scrolls: knowledge, power, eternal life? I still don't know.

Other positives, the ending with Ubu, Batman's completely black without blue color-scheme is awesome, the animation is pretty stellar, and the dialogue is pretty awesome.

That is cool, I will admit.

House and Garden- Awesome awesome awesome. Best, and perhaps the only remotely good, Poison Ivy episode ever. It humanizes her and delves into her psychology. Simple as that.

I'll explain why it doesn't in just a bit.

I mean, in all objectivity and stopping the joking, there's a massive psychological undertone to the episode. The whole point is that it's showing how Poison Ivy, in trying to pursue something other than crime, a usual human desire for a family, she ends up still twisting it to her own psychologically screwed up standards. It's just such deep insight into her character that her idea of happiness is making screwed up plant babies by keeping a guy captive. No other episode comes this close to giving her an interesting characterization.

Ivy never wanted a family. Much like Joker was using Dr. Quinzel from the start, Ivy was using Dr. Carlyle to get out of the asylum. She only started the "family" to mask her crimes. It simply cannot be the other way around: she didn't reform then use Dr. Carlyle. If she had reformed, what drove her back to crime? From start to finish the family life was a ruse.

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Just to correct what i think Mike meant to say in the episode, Under The Hood is one of the worst Batman stories ever.

Now that i got that out of the way onto the episodes. I pretty much agreed with everything that you guys said about the first few episodes but highly disagree with your views on "Avatar" and "House and Garden". "Avatar" while not being one of my favorite episodes i thought was highly enjoyable on an adventure serial kind of way like Mr. Mxyzptlk mentioned. "House and Garden" is actually one of my favorite episodes though and i have to say i was shocked when you guys ripped it apart like you did. And seeing how James mentioned "Critters" as a bad episode i can see that me disagreeing with you guys is going to probably become the norm from now on lol

As a little fun fact the girl that Dick is trying to hook up with in his dorm is voiced by Megan Mullally. I thought that was kind of funny.

Also since you guys mentioned Jason Hillhouse, he was friends with all of the DCAU guys because they use to frequent a comic shop he worked at which was near Warner Bros studio and eventually went on to work for New Wave Entertainment and one of his first accounts with the company was Warner Home Video and the DCAU DVD sets. So he basically puts together all those special features for the discs and since he is such a big fan and friend of the shows he sits in on a lot of the commentaries and interview discussions. He also put together the Batman documentary for the Batman (1989) SE DVD (which is actually quite good) as well as some of the documentaries for the Batman Begins SE DVD. You can also catch him voicing Robin in a deleted scene from Batman (1989) along with Kevin Conroy and Mark Hammill. There is an interview with him at World's Finest Online

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Just to correct what i think Mike meant to say in the episode, Under The Hood is one of the worst Batman stories ever.

If your gripe is the "how dare they bring back Jason Todd" thing, people need to move past that. Though I don't agree with how it was done, the execution was flawless. If your gripe is something else (RE: the writing, art, etc.), please explain, because I find the two volumes to be excellent reads.

As a little fun fact the girl that Dick is trying to hook up with in his dorm is voiced by Megan Mullally. I thought that was kind of funny.

Who?

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Ivy never wanted a family. Much like Joker was using Dr. Quinzel from the start, Ivy was using Dr. Carlyle to get out of the asylum. She only started the "family" to mask her crimes. It simply cannot be the other way around: she didn't reform then use Dr. Carlyle. If she had reformed, what drove her back to crime? From start to finish the family life was a ruse.

But she did. That was the reason that it ended with Batman saying that maybe she really was happy, and the reason why she shed a tear at the end. If she really hadn't wanted a family, then there would be no reason in ending it like that whatsoever. And didn't it state that the crimes were done for the purpose of financing her genetic experiments? I'm almost absolutely positive. And when Batman tells her she hadn't changed, and she immediately responds that she had, by stating that this is really the kind of family she wants, or something similar, you get the feeling she means it. If she had no care whatsoever for her little plant babies, she wouldn't have been so defensive (rather a 'you're right Batman, I haven't changed, blah blah blah') nor would she have been so motherly to her little creatures. The 50s happy homemaker life was certainly a ruse; the point was that to her sick genetic offspring, she was truly genuine. That's why it's so creepy and psychological.

She didn't reform, but she did want a family, and the tear at the end is solid evidence.

Calling attention to the crappiness doesn't make it less crappy, though.

It's not 'calling attention to crappiness'. it's paying an homage. It's a small tribute to the style of old B-movie serials that dealt with such fantastic adventures. And having Batman say that is pretty much the writers telling us not to take this seriously; it's straying from typical B:TAS to tackle a different story style.

I don't feel the "I was being myself" line was meant to make us sympathetic for him. That's simply the cold truth. Putting the box of money back (hi, James!) was the moment where we're supposed to think he's changed.

I sort of felt from the semi-sad evocative music that that's what it was going for. Oh well.

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But she did. That was the reason that it ended with Batman saying that maybe she really was happy, and the reason why she shed a tear at the end. If she really hadn't wanted a family, then there would be no reason in ending it like that whatsoever.

I took the tear to mean two things:

01. She didn't know what she could have had until she lost it.

02. Yes, in some small way, she's mournful that she can't procreate.

However, had Ivy really wanted a family, she could have had one in the form of the real Dr. Carlyle and his daughters. But that wasn't her aim. At heart Poison Ivy is a conniving criminal; marrying Dr. Carlyle and the family life was a plan from the start.

And didn't it state that the crimes were done for the purpose of financing her genetic experiments? I'm almost absolutely positive.

I'm not sure her reason for stealing was ever revealed.

And when Batman tells her she hadn't changed, and she immediately responds that she had, by stating that this is really the kind of family she wants, or something similar, you get the feeling she means it.

Was that the scene where the ivy pulled Batman off the roof? If so, Poison Ivy was still pretending to be innocent. Nothing she said during those conversations can be taken at face value.

If she had no care whatsoever for her little plant babies, she wouldn't have been so defensive (rather a 'you're right Batman, I haven't changed, blah blah blah') nor would she have been so motherly to her little creatures. The 50s happy homemaker life was certainly a ruse; the point was that to her sick genetic offspring, she was truly genuine. That's why it's so creepy and psychological.

Right, she loved her plant babies, not the human Dr. Carlyle.

She didn't reform, but she did want a family, and the tear at the end is solid evidence.

I addressed this above.

It's not 'calling attention to crappiness'. it's paying an homage. It's a small tribute to the style of old B-movie serials that dealt with such fantastic adventures. And having Batman say that is pretty much the writers telling us not to take this seriously; it's straying from typical B:TAS to tackle a different story style.

Batman telling Ra's that he sounds like a bad serial is calling attention to the quality of the episode and the dramatic difference in character from the last time we saw Ra's al Ghul.

I sort of felt from the semi-sad evocative music that that's what it was going for. Oh well.

Ha! I thought the music was to illustrate how sad the "freaks" felt at having been tricked by Croc. :laugh:

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I took the tear to mean two things:

01. She didn't know what she could have had until she lost it.

02. Yes, in some small way, she's mournful that she can't procreate.

I'm pretty certain it was over the loss of her 'family' that she created. Didn't Batman say something to the effect of, 'But when Ivy said that she wanted a family, I think she really did mean it', then cut to the tear and the photograph?

However, had Ivy really wanted a family, she could have had one in the form of the real Dr. Carlyle and his daughters. But that wasn't her aim. At heart Poison Ivy is a conniving criminal; marrying Dr. Carlyle and the family life was a plan from the start.

That's my point. She never wanted a true family, but she did want a family. Only due to her psychologically obsessed mind, her idea of family is a warped concept involving genetic plant experiments.

I'm not sure her reason for stealing was ever revealed.

I'm positive that they were at the end of the episode. I'll rewatch it later tonight and give you the quote.

Was that the scene where the ivy pulled Batman off the roof? If so, Poison Ivy was still pretending to be innocent. Nothing she said during those conversations can be taken at face value.

No no no. The scene when Ivy comes in to the lab after Batman finds her babies. He tells her she hasn't changed and she immediately responds with 'But I have!' Her aim really is to start a family of genetic plant experiments.

Right, she loved her plant babies, not the human Dr. Carlyle.

That's my point! She married Carlyle for the purpose of starting a twisted family of genetic plant babies, which she considers her 'family'.

Batman telling Ra's that he sounds like a bad serial is calling attention to the quality of the episode and the dramatic difference in character from the last time we saw Ra's al Ghul.

It's so bad it's good.

I sort of felt from the semi-sad evocative music that that's what it was going for. Oh well.

Ha! I thought the music was to illustrate how sad the "freaks" felt at having been tricked by Croc. :laugh:

That's pretty funny.

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  • 1 month later...

Ok so this will be the first time I review each episode, while I watch the five episodes being reviewed. When I am done I will than listen to this Episodes podcast and put in my opinion from what the podcast says.

Sideshow, I was never a big Killer Crox fan, until this series I never heard of him. This is a decent enough episode. Before I begin my review I always wondered why the writers, producers, etc, never gave us an origin story for Croc. Any comic book fans, please give me some info, does he have an interesting backstory? Well now for my review. For onc Batman takes a fall and like a human being is knocked out for a while. It has been said several times on this podcast that he is smashed with objects and falls several feet to the ground and manages to survive. But once again it is for the sake of the story, but still a good change. We are introduced to a world that Crox might have been a better person if he grew up with them, a grop of Sideshow performer with disfigurements. The color for Croc, like in the previous episode always bothered me, since he is part Reptile, the revamped look always seemed better. I give this a 6 out of 10

A Bullet for Bullock, first off I must say, the score is one of the best and the animation style is very good. We are immediately sucked into the world of Bullock from the title card, even the nasty areas of his life. This episode certainly makes you understand Bullock a bit. The thing I love about this series is how timeless it is, we see 30's and 40's style cars, but than we see computers, so we are never sure. This episode certainly gives us the 30's feel(given that there is a scene with the BatComputer). The score given to Bullock is a great piece of 40's noir style, but the real treat is to hear that same type of score remixed into the Batman theme. One of the best sequences was the hilarious ending and the reveal of the assailant, lol brilliant part. I give this an 9 out of 10.

Trial, Record!? Is someone supposed to be writing this down? The first thing from watching this episode, I immedaitely felt like this is one of the best, if not the best Mad Hatter driven episode. It's also a great irony that DA Van Dorn is campaigning against Batman and is seen going on a date with Bruce Wayne, lol great stuff. To hear each villain giving their point of view of their origin and how they became what they became was interesting. The lighting for the episode is terrific, the animators usually find great ways to light certain scenes and I love it here. We do get to see The Riddler and Scarecrow, who have been absent from the series for a while, but no talking. It's one of those episodes I can watch again and again, so for that I give this a 7 out of 10

Avatar, the first thing I must say is that Ubu in the costume he's in the beginning he looks very much like The Phantasm in the shadows, I wonder if that's a coicendence or deliberate. It's always interesting to see Batman or Bruce Wayne having to struggle between his heart and his mind. Whenever he faces Ra's Al Ghoul, his biggest edge on Batman is Batman's love for Talia. These episode featuring Ra's Al Ghoul have always been a fan favorite, even for me, mainly because we get to see the "Detective" in Batman, he throws very few punches and must use his head 100% of the time. David Warner once again is in top performce here. Another great episode featuring one of Batman's smartest and dangerous foes. I give this 8 out of 10.

House and Garden, Truly the best Poison Ivy episode in the entire DCAU. This episode manages to capture the true essence of Ivy's world and the struggle we never truly get to see. The monsters depicted aren't probably the least thrilling of the episode, but I truly fond myself, the first time I watched it and even now as I'm watching it sorry for her. She gives a speech about how much she hated what she was and for a minute at least I believe she really feels that way. I manage to notice a very "Creepshow" image as the creature smashes Dick we see a flash of red in the background, just like in the film Creeshow, that I thought was really eerily and cool. I give this a 7 out of 10.

Here's after I'm hearing the podcast. First thank you for the titles to read. I have been fixing to buy The Long Halloween, but Hush is something I have to get too.

Yes, the producers of Rob Zombie's Halloween originally wanted to release it in October, but decided on an early release, not sure if it had to do with Saw being released, but the film was so anticipated it would have survived.

Guess what guys, Saw IV isn't the end, we will be getting a Saw V and Saw VI, with a possible Saw VII. I love the Saw series, but I figure after the 5th one they need to stop, hopefully they smarten up.

Jaws would have gotten a PG-13 ratings, it's a suspense thriller and there is brief nudity. Although, it's only about 3 seconds it comes when the shark is coming up on the islander in the beginning. Like I said in the previous post, Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom was the first film to earn the PG-13, watch the 4th disc on the Indiana Jones box set and it is explained why.

Here's the link for the Gotham Girls website:

http://www2.warnerbros.com/web/gothamgirls...swf&end=end

Sideshow, now I have to agree on how does Croc know where the pellets in Batman belt are, but in terms of security, he has never been in the position yet where a villain has used it against him, so he wouldn't put the seciurity messure on it. Because of this experience, that is probably why, he has those later messures. Also, I don't think Croc knew what he was grabbing, he just knew it would give him an edge.

A Bullet for Bullock, The comment you made about Montoya's placement since POV, I believe that she might have been undercover or off of work at that point. It's so easy to love this episode, I can't find any reason for anyone to dislike this episode. There is that one scene where Bullock saves Batman from being shot by shooting while on a lowering chain, that was awesome and showed how much of a good cop Bullock is, he may be a slob in his personal life, but an excellent cop.

Trial, Yes, the "Throw the Rock at Him" said by Croc is always a laugh from me. This is the first reference to Harley's origin. I think it's kind of ironic that Joker is playing a joke of a judge and in the revamped series finale Two-Face become The Judge. It's cool to think that maybe in the episode "Harlenquinade" Harley helps Batman for the same reason Joker ratted Harley out for, time off.

Avatar, I don't really have anything to say on this. We do see some affection between Talia and Bruce, but it comes way too many times.

House and Garden, Same thing here, not much to say.

Here's the link for Gotham Girls again:

http://www2.warnerbros.com/web/gothamgirls...swf&end=end

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