Episode 28

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From Gotham Knights the guys discuss "Holiday Knights" (crime never sleeps in Gotham City, not even during the holidays), "Sins of the Father" (the debut of Tim Drake as Robin) and "Cold Comfort" (the shocking return of Mr. Freeze). Then from Superman: The Animated Series they cover "The Hand of Fate" (Doctor Fate does a whole lot of nothing as Superman battles the demon Karkull) and "Bizarro's World" (an ever-confused Bizarro returns to reshape, then destroy Metropolis). [ 2:01:05 || 55.4 MB ]

The above is from: http://www.worldsfinestpodcast.com/episodes/wfp_028.mp3

[James D.]

It occurs to me that I forgot to mention South Park when we were discussing cartoons we love. Now THAT would be a great podcast to do down the road sometime.

Alien bug vagina, btw.

[Missy]

Looking at it again, I see that the creature has no mouth on its face. So yes, that's it's mouth down there, but, come on, look where it is!

[Guest]

You'd think they would have at least made it horizontal with teeth or something.

[Dan]

Looking at it again, I see that the creature has no mouth on its face. So yes, that's it's mouth down there, but, come on, look where it is!

Hey, has anyone seen Spooj recently?

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Pre-Episode Banter

I would love to do a podcast about other cartoons! Animation is my specialty (I'm actually planning on being a storyboard artist). I've watched just about everything.

Ugh, X-Men was a horrible show. Same with any show made in the '80s. Sorry guys. Personally, I never saw a well-animated episode of X-Men.

I love Steven Blum, but I would hate it if it was a continuation of the '90s cartoon.

I think that both seasons of 'The Boondocks' are pretty good, actually.

E-Mails

'Superman: Doomsday' was pretty cool, but I can't understand why people hate the title. 'Doomsday' is obviously a reference to Doomsday the creature, but the fact that he was never explicitly named in the film and the fact that the movie had to market to non-fans basically means that 'Doomsday' simply refers to Superman's death. Most people don't know that Doomsday is the name of the monster.

Oh yeah, Anne Heche was horrible.

Episodes

Holiday Knights- Very enjoyable episode. While the animation is pretty average, there is a whole lot of great direction that creates such a good dark Christmas atmosphere. All three segments are loads of fun, and I really love the New Year's Eve ending.

The episode isn't meant to begin the series' continuity, but rather to offer a taste of what it would be like. That's why, for example, we see Clayface, even though it wasn't until 'Mudslide' that it is explained what happened to him.

I agree that the other two are boring, but I really enjoy this one.

I don't think that just because this episode is the pilot that it has to explain every continuity issue. Those get explained later. Not every episode is in chronological order. Mike is right, they are out of order.

I don't think we need any explanation for the Joker. He survives all the time, we just have to accept it. The fact that we get no explanation just adds to what a creepy character he is. I'd rather be left in the dark and have Joker come across as a creepy sadistic lunatic who laughs in the face of death and who always gets out of it than to get an explanation for his escapes and not have the same reverence for him.

Mike, only you would have pointed that out about the bed.

I love the second vignette. The animation on Clayface is excellent and I really enjoy the humor and the background designs and the very simple plot. Great stuff.

Yeah, I love the sensitive Bullock. Great subtle characterization.

Mike, you make a great point about Bullock and Montoya being at the dept. store, but I never noticed it and I'm sure most people don't either, so I'm fine with it.

Mike, it's definitely the same actors.

I disagree with your assessment of the tone of this episode not being indicative of the rest of the series. This series, despite more freedom as far as language and violence is concerned, was very much a more cartoony version of B:TAS, and episodes like 'Love is a Croc', 'Critters', and many others show this to be true. This episode does adequately show that the series is meant to be less visually dark and less realistic as a whole.

That's a great catch James about 'Return of the Joker'.

The Hand of Fate- I actually really enjoy this one. I like the Kirby elements a lot and the moral quandary is well-done given that this is a cartoon. And seeing Dr. Fate in animation is really really awesome.

I have no problem with the dialogue really. Yeah, it's cliche, but in the spirit of action-packed superhero fun, I thought it was fine.

Excellent point about the fact that Superman wasn't possessed.

Sins of the Father- I don't like it at all. Bad animation, the bat-family feels very inhuman, Batman has virtually no characterization other than being a mean and cold jerk, and again, Two-Face is just a generic mob boss. Overall I find it boring, plain and simple.

Mike, James is right, it was Steve.

Mike, I actually think you're going too easy on this one. It was a bad episode and I think it's easily the worst episode being reviewed today.

Yeah, I agree that it's not much of a surprise for Dick to make an epic reappearance in only the second episode of the series in which he's not part of the Bat Family. Definitely not good writing as far as developing a new series is concerned.

Actually, 'My God' was used occasionally on B:TAS (like in 'Heart of Ice').

NOOOO, that makes no sense what you said about 'Teen Titans'. First of all, the costumes are hardly similar and given that Robin has never had a wide costume variety, I can hardly comprehend how the black and red, with no green pants and metal shoes costume bears any possible resemblance to the 'Teen Titans' one. When the TT creators were making 'Teen Titans', they more than likely drew on the most common Robin costume in existence; there's nothing that suggests they so much at glanced at the TNBA Robin costume. Maybe whatever resemblances there are come from the fact that Murakami, who created 'Teen Titans' designed the TNBA Robin. Whatever the case, your theory does not work.

Bizarro's World- Good episode, easily the best one today. Finally some great animation, good funny Bizarro stuff, Krypto allusion, compelling story, no awful dialogue, and cool Kryptonian elements.

Ha, 'Me need soup!'

Cold Comfort- I don't like it at all. It ruined 'Mr. Freeze' and 'Sub-Zero''s happy ending. The head thing was just a gimmick done for shock value that added nothing to the character. No more compelling tragic elements. Everything about the episode is depressing: Batman's attitude, the ruination of all of the other characters, and the degradation of Mr. Freeze. Even if the episode did excel in the area of a great Mr. Freeze story, there is no hope or optimism, and watching the episode is just not very fun at all. I also did not like the animation either.

In fact, the ONE thing I like about this episode is the 'Twilight in Gotham' painting, which actually looked really really awesome.

Okay, so I definitely disagree with James.

Here's the thing, I don't really care how sad Freeze is, because he's no longer worthy of my sympathy. He's a horrible human being now. He has no redeeming qualities. So why should I care how sad he looks? He doesn't deserve me or anyone else feeling sorry for him.

I will give it that funny Bruce/Tim exchange, but that won't change my grade for this one.

Are you kidding, there are tons of creepier moments throughout the DCAU. 'Return of the Joker''s torture scene, the plant babies in 'House and Garden', 'Earth Mover' from 'Batman Beyond'. There's creepier stuff all across the map!

Yeah, Batman pretty much did kill him, but when he comes back in 'Meltdown', one of the greatest episodes of the DCAU ever.

I'm really agreeing with Mike about Freeze's motivations. They just aren't any good!

Scores

Holiday Knights- You: 3 / Me: 8

Hand of Fate- You: 4 and 5 / Me: 7.5

Sins of the Father- You: 5 and 6.5 / Me: 3

Bizarro's World- You: 6 and 7 / Me: 8.5

Cold Comfort- You: 6 and 8 / Me: 4

[Missy]

Ugh, X-Men was a horrible show. Same with any show made in the '80s. Sorry guys. Personally, I never saw a well-animated episode of X-Men.

You're right, the animation for X-Men wasn't the best, but the writing (what I remember of it) was mostly solid and got me interested in the characters.

I don't think that just because this episode is the pilot that it has to explain every continuity issue. Those get explained later.

We never said the first episode should explain "every continuity issue." We simply wanted to know how the Joker survived the blast. However, something neither James or I knew at the time is that "Holiday Knights" actually aired before "World's Finest," so it could be said that he hadn't "died" yet.

Mike, only you would have pointed that out about the bed.

Mike, James is right, it was Steve.

His father's name in the comic is Jack, so I must have gotten confused.

NOOOO, that makes no sense what you said about 'Teen Titans'. First of all, the costumes are hardly similar and given that Robin has never had a wide costume variety, I can hardly comprehend how the black and red, with no green pants and metal shoes costume bears any possible resemblance to the 'Teen Titans' one. When the TT creators were making 'Teen Titans', they more than likely drew on the most common Robin costume in existence; there's nothing that suggests they so much at glanced at the TNBA Robin costume. Maybe whatever resemblances there are come from the fact that Murakami, who created 'Teen Titans' designed the TNBA Robin. Whatever the case, your theory does not work.

The red costume Tim wears had to be Dick's first costume, otherwise it wouldn't have fit Tim. From there Dick went to the more traditional Robin colors: red, green and yellow. That's the outfit he wore in TT. After that, as he grew up, he modified that design once again, and that's the costume he had in BTAS. Is it a stretch? Sure, but his costume obviously evolved from all red (Tim's) to the one in BTAS, so it makes sense that there would have been one which bridged the gap.

Are you kidding, there are tons of creepier moments throughout the DCAU. 'Return of the Joker''s torture scene, the plant babies in 'House and Garden', 'Earth Mover' from 'Batman Beyond'. There's creepier stuff all across the map!

Joker's "home movie" from Return of the Joker isn't creepy, it's OH MY FUCKING GOD~! shocking. What Tim went through makes me want to cry. Seeing Freeze's head on spider legs is eerie.

[Kscriv]

Three things I must say.

#1, Steven Blum's last name is pronounced "bloom", not a big deal but I get nitpicky about that. Mostly after the way I butchered his best friend's name on the Ai-Kon podcast last year.

#2, Gotham Knights, man these reviews will bring back a lot of memories, I didn't appreciate B: TAS that much the first go round and never went out of my way to see it, S: TAS was on Kids WB!, something I didn't get at my place until the end of the show's run. Gotham Knights was on a local station at 7:30AM every weekday and it was sweet.

#3, For other cartoons, the 90s Marvel cartoons (X-Men and Spider-Man) would both work great, and if you wanted to do something more recent Avatar: The Last Airbender would make for an awesome show out of you guys. The show is beyond awesome at this point

[Nick Blaze]

Mike, What I meant in my e-mail was "I get it, but I disagree with it cause you were implying it too much." - but that's just me.

[Missy]

That doesn't make sense to me. If the point is valid, why disagree just because someone spoke for a few extra seconds?

[Dan]

I gotta say; generally speaking, as a rule, I was not crazy about Gotham Knights. With the exception of Bruce Wayne, who finally looked the way he always should have (Brown sportcoat and khakis? Seriously?), I really didn't like the character redesigns. During the summer before that season started, I was reading an interview with Bruce Timm where he talked about it, and he said that a lot of it was to make the show easier and cheaper to animate, and that could not have been more obvious. It was a lot more stylized, and I can understand why it has its fans, but the lushness and richness of the artwork and the animation of the first few seasons was gone.

I know I'm largely in the minority on that, though.

[Missy]

After watching the first three episodes, I'm really worried the show won't hold up.

[James D.]

Off the top of my head, there are five GK episodes that I know are awesome and I will be grading highly:

Cold Comfort (already reviewed)

Never Fear

Over the Edge

Old Wounds

Mad Love

But by that same token, there are a few episodes I just know I'm going to lambast:

Critters

Judgment Day

Animal Act

The Ultimate Thrill

...among, I'm sure, a few others.

Other than the first five I listed, looking at the list of episodes, I have to agree that it doesn't look like the series will be as good as I remembered.

[Missy]

For me, these are the ones I'm sure I'll rate high:

Growing Pains

Over the Edge

Old Wounds

The Demon Within

Legends of the Dark Knight

Mad Love

[Koete]

You guys may have talked about it and I completely missed it, but how do you guys feel about the change in art style in GK?

[Missy]

We spoke about some of the new designs during WFP 27, and in 28 there was a little talk about Freeze and Dent. As each redesigned foe pops up, I'm sure we'll discuss them then.

[JustinOliverAzbats]

My notes on " Holiday Knights":

* This episode is based on the BTAS tie-in comic, The Batman Adventures, and is its Christmas special. The stories are as follows

"Jolly 'Ol St. Nicholas- Bullock and Montoya go out on the lamest stakeout ever and Barbara Gordon is shopping for her dad when clayface appears and she must become batgirl to save the day!

The Harley and the Ivy- Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy kidnap Bruce Wayne with Ivy's hypnotic lipstick, and use his credit cards to treat themselves to a Christmas shopping spree

White Christmas-Batman has to stop an angry Mr. Freeze!

What are You doing New Years eve?- Joker plans to kill all the people celebrating in Gotham Square on New Year's Eve with a sonic weapon. It is up to Batman and Robin to stop him before the stroke of midnight.

Should Old Aquaintance Be forgot- Gordon and Batman meet at a diner to discuss the night's events.

CENSORSHIP_

* Bullock scratches himself in the comic.

* Ivy yells at Harley when they're captured " WELL,HERE'S YOUR *%@#!@# CHRISTMAS TREE! ARE YOU HAPPY?"

NEW CHANGES_

*Batman actually GETS SHOT!

* This episode is darker than Christmas with the joker, and speaking of, the joker actually has a plan in this episode!

SHOULDA...COULDA...

*You can bet your ass if this was a BTAS episode they would've had TITLES for every segment!

* Would've liked to see joker kill more people.

Storylines or villains I would've loved to see in the DCAU from the comics:

Villians_

Onomotapoeia- Created by Kevin Smith for the resurrection of green arrow.Onomatopoeia? The word itself means "words that are also sounds" For instance, BANG! is an onomatopoeia. This guy plays that up to the hilt, speaking ONLY in onomatopoeias throughout his appearances.

[annericelover]

Hey guys, how things been.

First off I must ask Mike, Why do you like Spongebob Squarepants? I can understand if you have kids, but you don't. I grew up watching TMNT, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, Thundercats, etc.

Yes, I finally found someone who didn't like The Transformers movies, ugh I thought it sucked.

It's okay about the Penny thing, I though Cheetarah was drawn wth attractiveness at times.

{Gotham Knights}

Holiday Knights, okay, well first off, I think when this aired it was a mistake, I think it was most likely quickly made to fill in the amount of episodes for the season, mainly because both The Robin Story and the Clayface story definitely takes place after the initial episodes they first appear in this series. Now before I start commenting on each vignate, I will agree that the new animation is great, it helps seperate itself from the FOX episodes, while still keeping it in continuity.

{December 22}-Terrible story, played for laughs, with little giggles. Whenever I dare put this episode on, I skip it. And Mike, only you would mention Harley and Ivy sharing a bed :laugh:

{December 24}- This was a better story, but mainly because of the Bullock and Montoya Scenes, once again its never mentioned until "Old Wounds" why or how Batgirl became a part of the team. Mike, please don't hurt your head over thinking about why GPD's best Detectives are on a stakeout for shop-lifters or why Clayface is stealing from department stores.

{December 31}-Probably my favorite of the entire episode and that's simply because of The Joker's appearance(and of course, Mark Hamill's voice), but not by much. When I first saw this when it premiered I was confused to see Robin as being a child. Than the next week's episode being Robin's introduction confused me more.

I am not sure how to grade this, so I will grade it as a whole. 4 out of 10.

{Superman; The Animated Series}

The Hand of Fate, ugh. I'm sorry, while I do share your opinions on how it expands the DCAU and the animation. It was just boring to me. I don't know why. It's a darker episode than most Superman: TAS episodes are, that's about all I can say about the episode being good. This just felt like another filler episode. I must give this episode a 5 out of 10.

{Gotham Knights)

Sins of the Father, wow this is what I think was originally supposed to be the first episode of this new series. Much better than the previous episode and one of my favorites. Bruce Timm and Co, have stated that their Tim Drake is a combination of the comics Jason Todd and Tim Drake, so the Jason Drake, is about spot on. I like the animation in this episode, Two Face's look isn't quite as different as Bullock or Gordan's or even Batgirl's look. It did stress me out to still wonder what happen to Dick Grayson, when I first saw this episode. I love it when you guys get technical with flaws, like when Batgirl is wiping sweat without taking her mask off. It's true. It doesn't really make sense why Dick Grayson would suddenly show up, just as a new Robin is born, if he left to get away from Batman in the first place. It also doesn't seem like there is any bad feelings, but the beginning of "Old Wounds" Dick has a real problem with Bruce. The OMG, stuff never had an impact on me, so to have it said so much, doesn't bother me, I also didn't pay much attention to it. This episode for me will get 7 out of 10.

{Superman; The Animated Series}

Bizarro's World, while I like Bizarro episodes, this isn't my favorite of them. But still I have watched this enough of times to say its enjoyable. The questions you have asked about the flaws on this episode are really good. The DNA/Orb plot hole and the Rumored Hamilton going to the Fortress of Solitude question is now bugging me, thank you very much. Hey guys, once again we got another torn Kryptonite Suit, how much do you think the government is shelling out for all the torn Kryptonite suits. Our Tax dollars at work again, I guess, lol. 7 out of 10

{Gotham Knights}

Cold Comfort probably my least favorite of the Mr. Freeze episodes in the DCAU. Watching it as an adult compared to when it first aired made me like it a little more, but it was still just stupid. By now, it just seemed like they are trying to throw in as many villains as possible, since The Kids WB didn't give them any more seasons of this show. Basically the only cool thing about this episode was Mr. Freeze's look, very skeletal and cool. Also now he has become a non-sympathetic character. He is no longer someone your feeling sorry for. With this episode I'll give it 5 out of 10

[Nick Blaze]

That doesn't make sense to me. If the point is valid, why disagree just because someone spoke for a few extra seconds?

Just to end this, in short terms, this isn't me being pissed off, I can't explain myelf on the issue.

[annericelover]

I forgot to mention during the episode "Sins of the Father" it seemed very careless of Batman and even Alfred to not notice Tim going upstairs to the mansion. Doesn't Alfred automatically close the entrance behind him when he walks into the batcave, just in case an intruder comes in, they can't enter upstairs.

And also Tara Charendoff voiced Batgirl/Barbara Gordan in Gotham Knights, Tara Strong returned as Young Batgirl in the Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker movie

Nevermind I looked into it further Tara Charendoff IS Tara Strong, its an alias. Why did they do that, I don't know.

Edited May 17, 2008 by annericelover

[Kscriv]

Not an alias, maiden name. She got married and took the name Strong. This realization made me love her more (knowing some of the stuff she did earlier in her career, Babar ftw.)

[annericelover]

Not an alias, maiden name. She got married and took the name Strong. This realization made me love her more (knowing some of the stuff she did earlier in her career, Babar ftw.)

Oh ok, thanks for that little tidbit, on Wikipedia it says its an Alias that's why I called it that.

[Doug]

*Comment Removed*