Civil War *SPOILERS!*

[JackFetch]

Let the police worry about it. The fact is, Nitro was both on drugs and had less than stellar training to rely on. His benefactor basically says he has no regard for discretion. Tangling with that man is dangerous. If they hadn't been attacked, Nitro wouldn't have killed those kids, simple as that. The New Warriors absolutely are partially to blame, and yet, without licensing or insurance or something, there's no way to hold them accountable. Speedball can't afford those damages, hell, Tony Stark couldn't pay what a jury would award those families.

Your kidding right? Then there would have been dead cops along with the kids. He wasn't going down without a fight no matter who was trying to bring him in. People were going to die no matter what. The fact is that the drugs were what caused him to kill, and he was considered a minor threat until then. That's why the New Warriors went after them. They thought they were fighting pushovers.

[Missy]

Your kidding right? Then there would have been dead cops along with the kids. He wasn't going down without a fight no matter who was trying to bring him in. People were going to die no matter what. The fact is that the drugs were what caused him to kill, and he was considered a minor threat until then. That's why the New Warriors went after them. They thought they were fighting pushovers.

Mmh. Not quite. If you recall, the New Warriors were told that members of Nitro's group butted heads with Spider-Man and nearly took down The Hulk. Plus Nitro himself killed Captain Marvel. Microbe (the fat one) then lamented that the thugs outclassed the Warriors, but Speedball wouldn't have it because of the ratings. Those villains, while not A-listers, were far from pushovers and Speedball knew it.

[A.Logan]

This series is so so good.

But I have to say, the more I read, the more I lean towards dislike of Tony Stark. He tried first to set up a secret society of people to watch the watchmen of the MU, offending T'Challa and Namor, then practically forced Spider-man into his debt and a "blood-pact" with him, knowing that the bill was coming before hand, then lied to Spider-man about hiring the would-be assassin. Not to mention he's cloned Thor, and is in bed with known criminals, whether they be former or not is irrelevant, because anyone could have a relapse.

Since the Stamford incident, the unrestrained hate of super-powered people is on or near anti-mutant levels of hatred. A mob beat the Human Torch down, and heroes are assailed verbally and physically everyday. The inmates that Speedball is locked up with are physically abusing him, the kid is only a teen, not some crazy Charles Manson type, he shouldn't be with these grown men, grown men who harbor ill will towards capes, I might add. Not to mention the denial and suppression of civil liberties left and right by agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and the railroading of any captured cape.

I was unsure before, but I'm now 100 percent behind Captain America, even if he doesn't have a plan, because he's fighting not only for liberty as it's outlined in the Constitution, he's also holding the government accountable for a decision that favors only part of the population, you can look at the conflict at Yancy Street to see that there are dissenters/people who don't support the war out there, and some are more vocal/physical than others. The war isn't about Cap having a plan, it's about the rights of the super-powered citizens being infringed upon, and in some cases, the citizens of other nations and other worlds too.

Oh, and it's Tony's fault Namor's splinter cell is causing a bunch of shit too. He and Reed claim to be able to intuit the future, well they should have seen that splitting their community down the center and getting in bed politically with the bad guys is bad news.

In other news, I'm glad Logan's against this, because in most matters, when he's got his opinion voiced, I tend to agree. Also, Luke Cage made a good point when Iron Man and Ms. Marvel tried to get him to sign on. Being persecuted for being different does change with the times, first it was religion, then race, and now it's happening to capes. Mutants went through it, and are going through it all over again except worse, now that they're an ultra-minority. I can only speculate that Charles Xavier and Magneto are not only shaking their heads in disapproval (for different reasons, of course), but also lashing out in anger at this turn of events.

Anti-SRA...that goes without saying. I'm with Cap.

[Missy]

But I have to say, the more I read, the more I lean towards dislike of Tony Stark. He tried first to set up a secret society of people to watch the watchmen of the MU, offending T'Challa and Namor, then practically forced Spider-man into his debt and a "blood-pact" with him, knowing that the bill was coming before hand, then lied to Spider-man about hiring the would-be assassin. Not to mention he's cloned Thor, and is in bed with known criminals, whether they be former or not is irrelevant, because anyone could have a relapse.

For me it isn't so much that he's associating with criminals, it's the criminals he's associating with. Many villains / criminals have joined the Avengers and aligned themselves with Stark in the past (Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver just to name a few); the difference is that they wanted to reform. Stark & Co. offered them a second chance, and they made good on that offer. The New Thunderbolts, however, have no intention of reforming. They're all evil to the core, no doubt about it. That's the issue in my book.

Since the Stamford incident, the unrestrained hate of super-powered people is on or near anti-mutant levels of hatred. A mob beat the Human Torch down, and heroes are assailed verbally and physically everyday. The inmates that Speedball is locked up with are physically abusing him, the kid is only a teen, not some crazy Charles Manson type, he shouldn't be with these grown men, grown men who harbor ill will towards capes, I might add. Not to mention the denial and suppression of civil liberties left and right by agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and the railroading of any captured cape.

Speedball is an adult. Not sure of his exact age, but college-aged at least. (My best guess is 25.) That said: is he being used as a scapegoat? Yes, but his reckless actions led to over 600 deaths. As such, he deserves to be in jail.

SHIELD is pulling a Guantanamo Bay. I'll give you that

I was unsure before, but I'm now 100 percent behind Captain America, even if he doesn't have a plan, because he's fighting not only for liberty as it's outlined in the Constitution, he's also holding the government accountable for a decision that favors only part of the population, you can look at the conflict at Yancy Street to see that there are dissenters/people who don't support the war out there, and some are more vocal/physical than others. The war isn't about Cap having a plan, it's about the rights of the super-powered citizens being infringed upon, and in some cases, the citizens of other nations and other worlds too.

People keep bringing this issue up, they keep saying what you said about rights being infringed upon. Here's the thing: vigilantes are criminals. Period. No one has the right to put on a mask and fight crime in the middle of the street, and the government is finally cracking down on these people. If they want to fight injustice they can join the police force, enlist in the military, become an attorney, sign up with SHIELD or, now, sign the dotted line and work for the government.

In the latest episode of The Show, as well as in our first Civil War episode, I mentioned how lucky superheroes are. The government could have cracked down and said, "No more superheroes." But they didn't. Instead the government gave them a pass, and is willing to pay for their services. No one is preventing the heroes from saving lives. No one. All that's being asked is that they receive formal training and answer to a higher power. Why is that so wrong?

Oh, and it's Tony's fault Namor's splinter cell is causing a bunch of shit too. He and Reed claim to be able to intuit the future, well they should have seen that splitting their community down the center and getting in bed politically with the bad guys is bad news.

To date the Atlantians haven't caused trouble. Their first goal was to capture Nitro, which they've done. The second, these sleeper cells, have yet to reveal their hand. Chances are high that they will cause trouble, I'll admit that, but, for all we know, Namor might just be calling them home.

In other news, I'm glad Logan's against this, because in most matters, when he's got his opinion voiced, I tend to agree. Also, Luke Cage made a good point when Iron Man and Ms. Marvel tried to get him to sign on. Being persecuted for being different does change with the times, first it was religion, then race, and now it's happening to capes. Mutants went through it, and are going through it all over again except worse, now that they're an ultra-minority. I can only speculate that Charles Xavier and Magneto are not only shaking their heads in disapproval (for different reasons, of course), but also lashing out in anger at this turn of events.

That it's seemingly become a draft, I dislike. At first it didn't seem that way, it was akin to registering a handgun. But as we've seen over in Front Line, Wonder Man was told it's a draft. Whether it is or isn't, the jury's still out on. For all we know, that could have been writers getting their wires crossed or SHIELD agents mouthing off.

Is it persecution? Well, the SHIELD agents are surely going overboard. But the heart and soul of the law is not meant to be taken as such. Again, it's the same as gun laws: if you own a gun, you have to register it. Why should it be any different for living, breathing weapons?

[Dread]

Wow....what a huge letdown this issue was.

Totally inconsistent with the rest of the MU.

I've said before: Dagger does not know Thor. Nor is she the type of character who would feel comfortable speaking like that to someone of such prestige let alone a god/most powerful being on earth.

Goliath? Kill the guy who was created because they needed another minority in the MU? Wow, he had expendable written all over him since his inception.

The woman whose son dies is now on Tony's side? She railed at him at the funeral and now all of a sudden, what I assume to be no more than about a week later, she is cheering him on? Whether or not she believes what he is doing is right it does not fit.

The Thor thing? I like the idea of cloning a god but despite all my railing against this I would have preferred the original Thor to be such a douchebag.

Captain America is losing his lustre to me and Tony Stark has not been redeemed. Maybe the greying of all areas is a ploy but if it is, it's a vague ploy. I'm beginning to lose steam on this storyline. It seems to be nothing more than a series of good story moments without the overall story to tie it all together. I've thought this all along but was hoping that by the 4th issue there would be some hope.

This is not what Marvel said it would be: a self-contained story with the MU revolving around it. There were things sprinkled throughout that required further explanation: Cable leaving Cap's team, the prison is the 42 project, Reed employing psychopaths? WTF?! That is the worst of all. These people are your friends, you are going to send Bullseye, Taskmaster and fucking Venom after them??? These are the most dangerous men in the MU and would love a crack at killing any hero. Did Iron Man ok Mandarin's release? It doesn't make sense.

I am in for the ride but my expectations have been lowered by this issue.

[Missy]

I've said before: Dagger does not know Thor. Nor is she the type of character who would feel comfortable speaking like that to someone of such prestige let alone a god/most powerful being on earth.

Joe Quesada has hinted at a C&D series in 2007, and I think Millar, knowing this, is trying to build her up / put her in the spotlight leading into said book. Was it out of character for her to speak that way to Thor? Hmm. I don't know. She really didn't mouth off to him. All she said was, "You're supposed to be dead," or something along those lines.

Goliath? Kill the guy who was created because they needed another minority in the MU? Wow, he had expendable written all over him since his inception.

The point is that even the death of a minor character changed the face of Civil War: Sue and Johnny have fled for the Secret Avengers, while Nighthawk and Stature skipped out for Tony's team (Cable doesn't count because, as a mutant, he's registered and was only aiding Cap here and there). More will have changed sides between this and the next issue, I presume. And all because Goliath died.

The woman whose son dies is now on Tony's side? She railed at him at the funeral and now all of a sudden, what I assume to be no more than about a week later, she is cheering him on? Whether or not she believes what he is doing is right it does not fit.

She sees him as righting a wrong he helped create. By wearing his armor, he set an example for young heroes to follow. Since her son's death, he's admitted that was wrong, has taken responsibility for himself (and other heroes) and is attempting to make sure it doesn't happen again. She sees and respects that.

It was very wrong of her to have her say at the funeral, however.

The Thor thing? I like the idea of cloning a god but despite all my railing against this I would have preferred the original Thor to be such a douchebag.

Yeah, I like my "Who are you to question the ruling class?" theory better.

Captain America is losing his lustre to me and Tony Stark has not been redeemed. Maybe the greying of all areas is a ploy but if it is, it's a vague ploy. I'm beginning to lose steam on this storyline. It seems to be nothing more than a series of good story moments without the overall story to tie it all together. I've thought this all along but was hoping that by the 4th issue there would be some hope.

There's three more issues. Trust that the story will gel by the end. Too many people are willing to judge comics (not just Civil War) after having read only half the story. Hell, I'm guilty of it too.

This is not what Marvel said it would be: a self-contained story with the MU revolving around it. There were things sprinkled throughout that required further explanation:

I disagree. This isn't Infinite Crisis, which was incomprehensible without the tie-ins. I'm reading nearly every CW tie-in, and none of them are feeding into the seven-issue mini. Some things from CW are bleeding into the other books (i.e. Wolverine going after Nitro, Peter unmasking, the destruction of the FF), but not vice versa. Maybe Cable left for a greater reason. We're halfway through. Give it time.

These people are your friends, you are going to send Bullseye, Taskmaster and fucking Venom after them??? These are the most dangerous men in the MU and would love a crack at killing any hero. Did Iron Man ok Mandarin's release? It doesn't make sense.

The Mandarin's dead.

Joking aside, I couldn't agree more.

[Dread]

Joe Quesada has hinted at a C&D series in 2007, and I think Millar, knowing this, is trying to build her up / put her in the spotlight leading into said book. Was it out of character for her to speak that way to Thor? Hmm. I don't know. She really didn't mouth off to him. All she said was, "You're supposed to be dead," or something along those lines.

I applaud this and Vaughn's future C&D series (because you know he'll write it). It's just that Dagger, despite all of the stuff they have seen, would be more likely to stand slack-jawed in awe. Her meeting with the Beyonder in the 80s was more along those lines and according to her Thor is on that level.

The point is that even the death of a minor character changed the face of Civil War: Sue and Johnny have fled for the Secret Avengers, while Nighthawk and Stature skipped out for Tony's team (Cable doesn't count because, as a mutant, he's registered and was only aiding Cap here and there). More will have changed sides between this and the next issue, I presume. And all because Goliath died.

Still: anti-climactic. The preview panels they released were in no way done justice.

There's three more issues. Trust that the story will gel by the end. Too many people are willing to judge comics (not just Civil War) after having read only half the story. Hell, I'm guilty of it too.

But is it enough to say that when characters are so out of character to the point of being ridiculous being the fundamental drive to the plot? Mind control is the only way out of what they've done to Reed and that's just cheap and stupid.

The Mandarin's dead.

Joking aside, I couldn't agree more.

Who is that directly behind Bullseye?

[Missy]

I applaud this and Vaughn's future C&D series (because you know he'll write it). It's just that Dagger, despite all of the stuff they have seen, would be more likely to stand slack-jawed in awe. Her meeting with the Beyonder in the 80s was more along those lines and according to her Thor is on that level.

Had she sassed him, I'd see your point. As it stands, all she did was state the obvious.

The point is that even the death of a minor character changed the face of Civil War: Sue and Johnny have fled for the Secret Avengers, while Nighthawk and Stature skipped out for Tony's team (Cable doesn't count because, as a mutant, he's registered and was only aiding Cap here and there). More will have changed sides between this and the next issue, I presume. And all because Goliath died.

Still: anti-climactic. The preview panels they released were in no way done justice.

Read the fourth Civil War Room over at Newsarama. Millar explains that he never intended to kill a major character. That was hype on Marvel's part. So if you can look past the hype, the death is important because of the rifts it has and will cause in the MU. An icon didn't need to die for the world to change.

But is it enough to say that when characters are so out of character to the point of being ridiculous being the fundamental drive to the plot? Mind control is the only way out of what they've done to Reed and that's just cheap and stupid.

Are they out of character, or is it that we've never seen them react to a universe-shaking event such as this? Most times the heroes align to fight villains. This time it's much, much different. Hiring major, Grade-A villains aside, I'm willing to accept their actions because the situation is nothing they or we have seen before.

Who is that directly behind Bullseye?

The Jester.

[S-T]

But by that logic, mutants, people born with powers (who for some reason are not mutants), or people who got them by accident are exempt too. And that's BS.

Every individual with superhuman powers should be exempt from such a law. Forcing everyone who acts as a vigilante (whether that person has superhuman powers or not) to register is one thing, but forcing everyone with powers to register, even if they don't use them, seems to me to be a massive overreach of government power.

If the NRA, GOA or JFPO was active in the Marvel Universe they would say "powers don't kill people - people kill people."

Legally, Nitro was defending himself, and not inherently doing anything illegal.

Even in the real world, if you use excessive force to defend yourself you can be prosecuted.

The New Warriors absolutely are partially to blame, and yet, without licensing or insurance or something, there's no way to hold them accountable.

You can hold them accountable py putting them in jail for manslaughter.

No one is preventing the heroes from saving lives. No one. All that's being asked is that they receive formal training and answer to a higher power. Why is that so wrong?

But it isn't just about forcing vigilantes to register, it is about forcing anyone with powers to register even if all they want to do is mind their own business and be left alone.

Again, it's the same as gun laws: if you own a gun, you have to register it. Why should it be any different for living, breathing weapons?

Philosophically, I see a big difference between registering inanimate objects and registering people.

[Missy]

No one is preventing the heroes from saving lives. No one. All that's being asked is that they receive formal training and answer to a higher power. Why is that so wrong?

But it isn't just about forcing vigilantes to register, it is about forcing anyone with powers to register even if all they want to do is mind their own business and be left alone.

That has yet to be stated. Until Marvel says otherwise, I'm under the assumption that any and all vigilantes must register -- powers or not.

Again, it's the same as gun laws: if you own a gun, you have to register it. Why should it be any different for living, breathing weapons?

Philosophically, I see a big difference between registering inanimate objects and registering people.

Agreed. There is a great moral debate here, and it's one I've struggled with. But the fact remains that nearly everybody with a power (vigilante or otherwise) poses a threat to society. While they may wish to use their powers and skills for the sake of humanity, untrained / supervised usage will cost dozens, hundreds or even thousands of lives. Registering and training doesn't secure 100% safety, but it would drastically reduce the number of injured and killed bystanders.

People are acting as if the government is forcing people into camps once they register. They're not. Quite the opposite, really; registered individuals retain their freedoms, and are offered a job. They can still superhero. Only differences are they'll get paid, receive training and have a boss.

[ragernok2002]

No one is preventing the heroes from saving lives. No one. All that's being asked is that they receive formal training and answer to a higher power. Why is that so wrong?

But it isn't just about forcing vigilantes to register, it is about forcing anyone with powers to register even if all they want to do is mind their own business and be left alone.

That has yet to be stated. Until Marvel says otherwise, I'm under the assumption that any and all vigilantes must register -- powers or not.

Jessica Jones got told in New Avengers 22 that she had to register even though she only wants to raise her kid and no longer be a superhero

[Missy]

Wow, did I ever misread that quote! Somehow I interpreted it as S-T thinking only those with superpowers had to register, meaning guys like The Punisher and Hawkeye did not.

Anyway, my response to the actual statement is this: eventually those powers are going to be used. In the very first issue of Alias Jessica defenestrated an upset customer. She was only able to do that because of her powers. Granted, she was protecting herself, but the point is that she used them. Now repeat the above scenario, but have Jessica fire a gun. Her body, like a gun which must be registered, is a weapon.

[drqshadow]

So, ASM and CW:FL made for interesting reading this week. Stark is clearly becoming the evil mastermind...

[Missy]

Okay. This can't be Tony. It's either the kid Iron Man from a decade back or Iron Lad gone crazy or Kang or... agh!

[Mull]

Could Stark be sleeping with the woman from Shield at all? Thus leading to it all being her plan to cause this by just putting things in his head, that way it could lead to the heros combining at the end to go after Shield and possibly a higher company.

[Darque Edge]

In the 'Tony Stark bastadry' file, a beautiful tidbit from 'Civil War Files' (which, if you haven't read, is a run down of all the major characters, from Tony Stark's files to the President).

paraphrased from memory:

'I thought I had Peter's complete trust, but it appears that he is still hiding things from me. It turns out that he has some sort of inherent 'early warning' ability when danger is near. I only found this out THROUGH THE MUSCLE MONITORS IN HIS SUIT.'

Emphasis mine. Stark's monitoring Spidey, and the suit is allowing him to find out secrets about him.

[A.Logan]

FUUUUCK I hate Tony Stark.

[Holacik]

Anyway, my response to the actual statement is this: eventually those powers are going to be used. In the very first issue of Alias Jessica defenestrated an upset customer. She was only able to do that because of her powers. Granted, she was protecting herself, but the point is that she used them. Now repeat the above scenario, but have Jessica fire a gun. Her body, like a gun which must be registered, is a weapon.

So then every mutant that has a power should be registered, even if thier power isn't dangerous. Like someone like Beak(the chicken-like human) who dosen't have any dangerous powers? My question is though, knives can be used to kill people and you don't have to register them.

[Dread]

Anyway, my response to the actual statement is this: eventually those powers are going to be used. In the very first issue of Alias Jessica defenestrated an upset customer. She was only able to do that because of her powers. Granted, she was protecting herself, but the point is that she used them. Now repeat the above scenario, but have Jessica fire a gun. Her body, like a gun which must be registered, is a weapon.

So then every mutant that has a power should be registered, even if thier power isn't dangerous. Like someone like Beak(the chicken-like human) who dosen't have any dangerous powers? My question is though, knives can be used to kill people and you don't have to register them.

I think the point is that guns are created for the sole purpose of killing. You can't butter your toast with a shotgun. But man, would I love to try!

Beak shouldn't be registered, he should be put out of his misery;)

[Missy]

Anyway, my response to the actual statement is this: eventually those powers are going to be used. In the very first issue of Alias Jessica defenestrated an upset customer. She was only able to do that because of her powers. Granted, she was protecting herself, but the point is that she used them. Now repeat the above scenario, but have Jessica fire a gun. Her body, like a gun which must be registered, is a weapon.

So then every mutant that has a power should be registered, even if thier power isn't dangerous. Like someone like Beak(the chicken-like human) who dosen't have any dangerous powers? My question is though, knives can be used to kill people and you don't have to register them.

Prior to that I wrote:

There is a great moral debate here, and it's one I've struggled with. But the fact remains that nearly everybody with a power (vigilante or otherwise) poses a threat to society.

"Nearly everybody."

I'm aware that some powers are harmless, and that's where the "great moral debate" comes in here. However, of the remaining (RE: living) members of the original "198," none have harmless mutations. The only one who could have furthered your point was the blue-skinned Jazz, but he's now dead. The rest can use their powers to fight, injure and / or kill.

Registering knives isn't feasible because, unlike guns and these superhuman powers, they're virtually untraceable.

[A.Logan]

What about when Quicksilver gets to some of the other mutants?

I say when and not if, because it's bound to happen.

[Missy]

We still don't know how long the effect lasts. It could be like MGH, providing former mutants with short bursts of power. Or it could be permanent. If it's the latter, they'll then have to register too.

[Holacik]

Anyway, my response to the actual statement is this: eventually those powers are going to be used. In the very first issue of Alias Jessica defenestrated an upset customer. She was only able to do that because of her powers. Granted, she was protecting herself, but the point is that she used them. Now repeat the above scenario, but have Jessica fire a gun. Her body, like a gun which must be registered, is a weapon.

So then every mutant that has a power should be registered, even if thier power isn't dangerous. Like someone like Beak(the chicken-like human) who dosen't have any dangerous powers? My question is though, knives can be used to kill people and you don't have to register them.

Prior to that I wrote:

There is a great moral debate here, and it's one I've struggled with. But the fact remains that nearly everybody with a power (vigilante or otherwise) poses a threat to society.

"Nearly everybody."

I'm aware that some powers are harmless, and that's where the "great moral debate" comes in here. However, of the remaining (RE: living) members of the original "198," none have harmless mutations. The only one who could have furthered your point was the blue-skinned Jazz, but he's now dead. The rest can use their powers to fight, injure and / or kill.

Registering knives isn't feasible because, unlike guns and these superhuman powers, they're virtually untraceable.

I'm at a slight disadvantage since I don't quite know what the original 198 is, still you kind of tip-toe around the question Do you register everyone who has powers whether or not they're dangerous?

Another question, What happens to the heroes who refuse and then get captured?

[Missy]

I'm at a slight disadvantage since I don't quite know what the original 198 is, still you kind of tip-toe around the question Do you register everyone who has powers whether or not they're dangerous?

It's a nonissue, frankly; every current superpowered character (mutant, alien, human, mystic, etc.) has a power which can be used to fight, injure and / or kill. But I'll answer the question nonetheless: yes, even someone whose farts smell like freshly cut grass should have to register. Why, because of secondary mutations. One day he might wake up with the ability to communicate with grass, which he can then use in a Ra's al Ghul kind of way.

Another question, What happens to the heroes who refuse and then get captured?

They go to jail.

That said, I loathe the "let's incarcerate them indefinitely" thing they've got going on. Whatever penalties are levied upon unregistered gun owners should be thrust upon unregistered superpowered beings.

[ragernok2002]

Did anybody read the Captain America CW Tie in, Cap gives another reason why he is anti regisration. People who knew him where killed for simply knowing him and he can't live beside normal people in case they get attacked so he has to live isolated from everybody, and he accepts this because he is Catain America, but feels no one else should have to have this forced on them.