Stavros Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 And my point is proven. You can't book an entire universe on the fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuaveStar Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 And my point is proven. You can't book an entire universe on the fly. You can. You just need to actually start the universe from scratch. I think that Monty Python perfectly sums up the DC reboot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 And my point is proven. You can't book an entire universe on the fly. You can. You just need to actually start the universe from scratch. This. I remember reading those bits from Teen Titans and being confused because they contradicted things DC had said in interviews elsewhere. I figured they'd be ignored, like some of the weird things that were said in the early issues right after Crisis on Infinite Earths (if you want to talk about post-reboot flubs, that era had WAY more than this one. seriously.). But I didn't think they'd be outright altered in later publication. Yeah, I was just thinking earlier today, they seriously should have rebooted the entire universe. They did that with Superman, Wonder Woman, and most of the rest of the League, but leaving all the Robins exactly as they were was stupid. I'd have rather that they went all the way back to having Dick Grayson as Robin, then had him graduate to Nightwing after a couple of years. Bring in the other Robins after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusk20 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 The DCnU, for me, has been a massive cock up. I started off reading about 20 comics a month when the DCnU started up, and now I'm down to 5 monthly. Mainly because the writing has taken a steep decline and now it just seems that DC have no fucking idea what they're doing. Especially when it comes to Batman and the family. Hell for every character. But since reading the #0's for Batman, Detective Comics, Batgirl and Batman & Robin, I've managed to work out a very basic timeline similar to what KnightWing mentioned above. 10 years ago - Bruce leaves Gotham to begin his training (Detective comics #0) - Damien (Wayne) is "born" (Batman & Robin #0) 7 years ago - Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham, with beard, at Wayne Manor (Detective comics #0) 6y 3m ago - Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham...again (Batman #0) 6 years ago - Bruce Wayne is fighting crime as a vigilante at night. Isn't using the Batman suit or name yet (Batman #0) - Bruce and Lieutenant Gordon first meet at Bruce's place in Crime Alley (Batman #0) 5 years ago - Batman first meets Green Lantern, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg (Justice League #0) - Gordon turns on the Bat signal for the first time. Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake and Barbara Gordon all see this (Batman #0) - Damien Wayne finds Batman's Cape and Cowl within Talia's belongings (Batman & Robin #0) 4 years ago - Barbara puts on a makeshift Batsuit and meets Batman for the first time in the Police Station (Batgirl #0) 3 years ago - Barbara gives up being Batgirl after she "messed up" and is later shot by the Joker (Batgirl #0) Current Time - Bruce & Damien Wayne fight crime as Batman & Robin So thats what I've managed to get from the few #0's I've read so far. And from what I can tell, the story is all over the place. Barbara looks to be at least 16/17 when she first meets Batman. I'm getting this from a few things. The first is she's developed and filled out well (sorry but it has to be said). The second is James Jr looks around 10 years old and is drawn much younger than Barbara. Also she's taking "Intro to Criminology" which seems like a class for higher school levels. Finally, a year after beginning as Batgirl, she quits and throws herself into her college studies. But then we get into bigger troubles. As its shown in Batgirl #0, she fought crime alongside Batman and Robin. Now we have to figure that this Robin is Dick Grayson. Now from Batman #0, we can see that Dick Grayson is still with the circus, so he must've become Robin around 14/15 because he looks around that age at the circus. We also see Jason Todd who looks a year younger (13/14), and Tim Drake who looks around 11/12. So then i'll do it this way; Year 1 - Bruce is Batman (25) Year 2 - Batman takes on Robin (Dick 14/15) and meets Barbara (15/16) Year 3 - Batgirl quits and shot by Joker Year 4 - Batman (28) and Robin (Dick 17/18) Year 5 - Jason Todd takes over as Robin (18/19) and Dick becomes Nightwing (19/20). Jason Todd is killed by Joker, Tim Drake takes over as Red Robin (16/17) Year 6 - Current - Batman and Robin (Damien 10) Bruce is 30 years old That has taken a while to make, so please be kind folks. But very interested in hearing thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Most of that seems pretty accurate. Bruce left to travel the world a lot longer ago than "10 years," though. Detective #0 wasn't set at the very beginning of his journey. I hadn't thought about Damian's age. There has to be some cloning vat rapid-aging tomfoolery or it literally doesn't make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusk20 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere that Bruce was only gone 4 years for his training. I will have another look though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusk20 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Found it! Bruce and Gordon are on the roof of his apartment meeting for the first time (BATMAN #0). Bruce says "well, I was away for four years." this is just after Gordon questioned Bruce about returning 3months ago. Hope that helps a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prez Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 That's really cool, but I feel you've put way more thought into this than DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Yeah, the fact that this needs that much rationalization is complete bullshit. It is editorially mandated storytelling at its worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusk20 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 That's really cool, but I feel you've put way more thought into this than DC. Haha, im out of work right now. So this was a good time waster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashfan1 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 ugh... my head hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining knight Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Green lanterns now been dropped. Unlike the rest I will be continuing it in trades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuaveStar Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/09/17/red-hood-and-the-outlaws-0-preview Preview of Red Hood and The Outlaws 0. Fills in more of the back story of Jason in DCnU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I'm putting together a full timeline of events. It's all lining up, all with the exception of Damian's age. According to the new timeline, if Damian aged normally, he would have been born before Bruce ever left Gotham. However, it's shown that Damian didn't have a natural birth (being born from an artificial womb and being genetically altered), and it's deliberately left vague as to how much time has passed, only that Damian is "ten" when he is finally allowed to meet Batman ("a year and a half ago"). So my theory is that Damian actually aged at double the normal rate, which is pretty standard for sci-fi stories involving unnatural birthing or cloning. I'm pretty sure something similar was said in one of Morrison's books pre-reboot anyhow. Also, just read Batgirl #0. I think that's the first book that's actually made me appreciate the new compressed timeline. It's basically a complete reboot of the character's history, and although it ends with The Killing Joke, it still makes sense and doesn't feel cluttered or messy like Damian's story does. If Red Hood, Teen Titans, and Nightwing have similar #0 stories, that might go a long way towards making the Bat-universe feel complete again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusk20 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Yes, it seems Damien was "conceived" after Bruce was Batman, because Damien finds the cape and cowl in the chest. So I'd go with accelerated aging. As for Batgirl #0, it was a well put together origin. Like you said, because they completely remade it. Can't wait to see your full timeline. And already I'll say thanks, and take long breaks because I got a massive headache after the attempt I posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koete Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 I don't know if I should laugh or facepalm. I'll probably settle for both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavros Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Sorry, but when they can't even get the continuity of Tim Drake right there are serious problems. Had had his own book for like 15 years and had major roles in Batman and Teen Titans, he's effectivly a bigger character than anyone outside of major leaguers like bats, supes and GL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prez Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Yeah, the whole thing is just a clusterfuck. If it weren't for a handful of good books, I could just give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Or, on the other hand, you could look at it with a glass half full approach. It seems pretty obvious that they decided to alter Tim Drake's origin sometime after the #1s last September were printed. However, aside from a few offhand comments, nothing's really been changed. Tim's origin hasn't been a plot point in any book as of yet, and the only thing that's actually any different from what's been said is that now there's a "Red" in front of his former name. It's sad proof that not everything was entirely thought out before the reboot, but not worth losing your lunch over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donomark Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Red Hood and the Outlaws #0 Apparently mostly everything with Jason's origin is the same...excpet that the Joker set the plans in motion for him to become Robin, basically creating him just to kill him I've fucking had it with Scott Lobell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Just read the issue. Clarify: why is that a bad idea? It certainly helps the idea that Jason is the dark mirror of Dick. Dick was raised by good parents and brought in by Batman; Jason was raised by horrible parents and tossed in Batman's lap by the Joker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 How much does DC pay you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donomark Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Just read the issue. Clarify: why is that a bad idea? It certainly helps the idea that Jason is the dark mirror of Dick. Dick was raised by good parents and brought in by Batman; Jason was raised by horrible parents and tossed in Batman's lap by the Joker. It's a bad idea because it smacks of crazy change for change's sake. The only way this makes sense is if Joker knows Bruce Wayne is Batman, knows Leslie Thompkins, and is telapathic. HTF could he guess that Bruce would adopt Jason and make him Robin? What kind of sense does that make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightWing Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 How much does DC pay you? Lemme clarify something. I don't retain a generally positive attitude about things like DC Comics because I'm an insane fanboy. Superman is my favorite character of all time and yet I'll be the first to tell you that the entire Superman family line of books (aside from Supergirl and a few issues of Action) has been horrible. That said, I hate the general comic book fan perspective of fearing change or hating something because it's different than the thing you loved before. I think it's a terrible thing that most people on the internet, whether they consider themselves part of the uneducated masses that like Twilight or the educated elite that enjoy H.P. Lovecraft, immediately resort to a negative response when something new happens with the things they most love. Nowhere is this more evident than in comic book fandom. How many fans bitched and whined when Bucky returned from the dead? After all, he was one of the characters that was supposed to "stay dead," a la Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, etc. And now look who's got egg on their face. Look who's peeing their pants over the fact that Captain America 2 is subtitled "The Winter Soldier." Comics can do mind-bogglingly stupid things a lot of the time as well, but I always prefer to hope for the best until proven otherwise. Pessimism without proof can go to hell for all I care. Therefore, I don't have the gut instinct of disliking the DC reboot as a concept the way that a lot of other people do. Now, hey, when things don't work out in execution (as in the Superman family), that's one thing. There's plenty of problems with what DC's done, like the fact that a good portion of the reboot was half-cocked in September. The references to Tim-as-Robin and the former Teen Titans, though only appearing in a total of two #1 issues as offhand remarks, are proof enough of that. But then we also have examples of great things coming out of the reboot, like Batman, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Flash, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman (and in the case of Flash and Wonder Woman, that was made possible specifically because of the reboot). Even now, the Superman family books could become good at any point in time, really. Nothing's been screwed over, and there's still a huge blank canvas to work off of. And the Red Robin thing? Small potatoes, ultimately. So yes, I prefer to take the glass half full approach. Accept things as they come, but hope for the best in the meantime. And give everything an honest look. Don't dismiss it out of hand just because it contradicts the idea you've got in your head. The only way this makes sense is if Joker knows Bruce Wayne is Batman, knows Leslie Thompkins, and is telapathic. HTF could he guess that Bruce would adopt Jason and make him Robin? What kind of sense does that make? It's been established in stories pre-New 52 that Leslie is known to be an ally of Batman by the locals, since he's been seen aiding her and her patients repeatedly. It's not illogical to assume that dropping Jason off at the clinic might be a decent way to get him next to Batman. Also, Jason looks a hell of a lot like Dick did. Really, all the Robins and Bruce look eerily alike. It's been implied in the past that Bruce picks his Robins based on the idea that they remind him of himself at a young age, and he wants to help them. Moreover, the Joker has a decades-long history of figuring out Batman's psyche. Just as Batman can often predict Joker's plots, Joker can in turn deliver some surprising insights into Batman's mind. He understands Batman's psychological need to continue his mission and use the methods he does, just as Joker has his own drive to incite chaos through his own personal methods. It's not illogical to assume that Joker caught on to the fact that Batman keeps the sidekicks around for personal reasons (something Joker's pointed out in pre-reboot stories), and that led him to craft a situation where Jason would become the next Robin. Scott Snyder's said that his next Joker story will end up involving the entire Bat-family in some way, so perhaps this is actually leading into that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusk20 Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 Yeah Red Hood issue #0 pisses me off big time....am I the only one who now thinks the Joker knows Batman's identity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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